IMO as a non-military expert, I would give minimal equipment like maybe 20 NODs.  And if they need more, we can always supply more if the situation warrants.  Same with other stuff because many knew that the A-stan army would fall fast. It's just the guys in charge choose to disregard the intel. I mean the A-stan army fell as we  started the failed evacuation process.  So to say they "definitely wouldn't have stood a chance" is moot.

Stingers do have an expiration date, but IDK specifically what part expires.    But like I said, we gave them sparingly, actually not "we" because the spooks are a private organization.

Doesn't really answer the question I posed though. Basically this, how could we have transferred power back to the Afghan government if they didn't have the military means to defend themselves?

Doesn't really answer the question I posed though. Basically this, how could we have transferred power back to the Afghan government if they didn't have the military means to defend themselves?

Cant. Cause their army sucks. But if u wanna try, see my sample plan above. Even their president left during the failed evac.

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Cant. Cause their army sucks. But if u wanna try, see my sample plan above. Even their president left during the failed evac.

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Not sure that sample plan would work, Afghanistan is not a small country landwise, the Afghan army can't just drive back to base  to get all the equipment after the Taliban starts attacking. As soon as the Taliban knew we were leaving they were rolling across the country. Even if we tried to collect all the equipment we wouldn't be able to get much of it and even if we did it would have hastened the Taliban's advance. Taking all the equipment back would seem akin to pulling the pin on a grenade and just running as fast as possible. If we never armed them in the first place they would have been overrun as soon as we transferred power, it seems like a destined failure either way.

I am generally the type to say that we have to try to do the right thing even if we will probably lose but even I think maybe we never should have tried affect the government in the first place.

Not sure that sample plan would work, Afghanistan is not a small country landwise, the Afghan army can't just drive back to base  to get all the equipment after the Taliban starts attacking. As soon as the Taliban knew we were leaving they were rolling across the country. Even if we tried to collect all the equipment we wouldn't be able to get much of it and even if we did it would have hastened the Taliban's advance. Taking all the equipment back would seem akin to pulling the pin on a grenade and just running as fast as possible. If we never armed them in the first place they would have been overrun as soon as we transferred power, it seems like a destined failure either way.

I am generally the type to say that we have to try to do the right thing even if we will probably lose but even I think maybe we never should have tried affect the government in the first place.

You comments would have been valid 10 years ago.  The last 10 should have included an orderly drawdown of troops and equipment to a manageable number.  Then, when the final withdrawal began, there would have been fewer people and less gear to move.

Instead, we kept pumping more and more money (read people, equipment and weapons) into the country.

BTW, the stuff we sent isn't spread out over the entire country.  It's mostly concentrated in key cities for use or to be guarded.  Only the arms needed by mobile units would be on the road or in smaller villages.

You comments would have been valid 10 years ago.  The last 10 should have included an orderly drawdown of troops and equipment to a manageable number.  Then, when the final withdrawal began, there would have been fewer people and less gear to move.

Instead, we kept pumping more and more money (read people, equipment and weapons) into the country

Yes, in my opinion there wasn't any orderly withdrawal plan.  It sure looked to me as something that they procrastinated with until the last minute.  Like partying in college until realizing semester finals are tomorrow.  

Sure as a POTUS you need to delegate the withdrawal plan but that doesn't mean biden can delegate then ignore it thinking his job is done.  He has to follow through and oversee it's implementation and step in if need to.

My opinion is that the old man was too busy messing up immigration, the economy, and the covid issue.  Didn't pay attention to the withdrawal plan.  Too old for multi-tasking.

Yes, in my opinion there wasn't any orderly withdrawal plan.  It sure looked to me as something that they procrastinated with until the last minute.  Like partying in college until realizing semester finals are tomorrow.  

Sure as a POTUS you need to delegate the withdrawal plan but that doesn't mean biden can delegate then ignore it thinking his job is done.  He has to follow through and oversee it's implementation and step in if need to.

My opinion is that the old man was too busy messing up immigration, the economy, and the covid issue.  Didn't pay attention to the withdrawal plan.  Too old for multi-tasking.

More like they knew that they needed to move out by the end of the month, but they were doing "stuff" the last week and though moving out of a house would be no problem because they were leaving their stuff with the pot smoking hippie neighbor for "safe keeping". 

I mean I wouldn't put this the debacle all in Biden.  That said, who is in charge?  Wasn't one of this campaign things about he's ultimately responsible and will correct Trump's mistakes and make everything better?  Or something like that. . .

Not sure that sample plan would work, Afghanistan is not a small country landwise, the Afghan army can't just drive back to base  to get all the equipment after the Taliban starts attacking. As soon as the Taliban knew we were leaving they were rolling across the country. Even if we tried to collect all the equipment we wouldn't be able to get much of it and even if we did it would have hastened the Taliban's advance. Taking all the equipment back would seem akin to pulling the pin on a grenade and just running as fast as possible. If we never armed them in the first place they would have been overrun as soon as we transferred power, it seems like a destined failure either way.

I am generally the type to say that we have to try to do the right thing even if we will probably lose but even I think maybe we never should have tried affect the government in the first place.

I too have no idea if my plan would work because I am not a strategist.  But what I do know is all intel pointed toward A-stan falling to the Taliban quickly.  I mean, you ask any one who's been there and working with the ANA, they knew this without reading a report.  But to be fair, the military does have a history of not listening to the boots on the ground.  But that is moot because intel did report what would happen.  You don't have to collect equipment, but disable them.  So yes, tossing a grenade in a vehicle or stack of equipment would be acceptable or like measures.  Not like anything explosive in nature is hard to come by over there. 

The other main issue is how good of the fake news to bacially give Biden a break. Had this same situation happened under Trump, I can guarantee there would have been articles of impeachment by day 3.

I too have no idea if my plan would work because I am not a strategist.  But what I do know is all intel pointed toward A-stan falling to the Taliban quickly.  I mean, you ask any one who's been there and working with the ANA, they knew this without reading a report.  But to be fair, the military does have a history of not listening to the boots on the ground.  But that is moot because intel did report what would happen.  You don't have to collect equipment, but disable them.  So yes, tossing a grenade in a vehicle or stack of equipment would be acceptable or like measures.  Not like anything explosive in nature is hard to come by over there. 

The other main issue is how good of the fake news to bacially give Biden a break. Had this same situation happened under Trump, I can guarantee there would have been articles of impeachment by day 3.

I certainly think Afghanistan has been a long string of mistakes and am in no way defending the way the pullout was done.

I was talking to a retired airforce guy and he pointed out that in the military it was common to leave behind equipment that did not make sense logistically to bring back. So maybe the cost of shipping it back was too much or maybe it was not functional and not worth fixing if they did bring it back, or it was out of date, etc. That made me wonder, out of the list of equipment that was allegedly left behind, how much of it is actually works? So for example maybe we left 20 humvees but only 5 actually worked? It is possible that it isn't as bad as the list makes it seem. Just something to consider.

I certainly think Afghanistan has been a long string of mistakes and am in no way defending the way the pullout was done.

I was talking to a retired airforce guy and he pointed out that in the military it was common to leave behind equipment that did not make sense logistically to bring back. So maybe the cost of shipping it back was too much or maybe it was not functional and not worth fixing if they did bring it back, or it was out of date, etc. That made me wonder, out of the list of equipment that was allegedly left behind, how much of it is actually works? So for example maybe we left 20 humvees but only 5 actually worked? It is possible that it isn't as bad as the list makes it seem. Just something to consider.

Since the white house made no mention, 1 can assume they work. As in no hole in the engine block, which totally disables the vehicle.  Flat tire maybe, but easily fixable compared to a hole in the block.

Jenn could have said that thousands of m4s were left behind. But all missing their triggers. So they no work.

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What do you guys think Trump’s exit strategy was ?
Leave the Afghan Government high and dry or negotiate with the Taliban ?
We transferred a crap ton of equipment to them over 20 years.

Sadly, under Biden we apparently did both.

What do you guys think Trump’s exit strategy was?  Leave the Afghan Government high and dry or negotiate with the Taliban?  We transferred a crap ton of equipment to them over 20 years.

Trump and his policies were trying to return the US back into being the American republic again.  Hence, being the businessman he is, I truly believe, as much as he did not like China, he knew how China does business internationally, and was orchestrating America into taking their first baby steps away, from imperial invasion based economics, towards a more carrot and stick approach.

Similar to his attitude towards NATO, the de-occupation of Afghanistan would have been one, of his crowning achievements, during his presidency, and would have signaled the pivot away, of America's long-standing imperial foreign policy.  However, as I have repeated, ad nauseum, the oligarchical Power Okole that really runs the US empire had no interest in surrendering their dominion, just for the American citizenry, to regain their republic again.

Biden was allowed to become the current US imperial puppet president, in order, to purposely botch the de-occupation of Afghanistan and take the political blame, for the debacle; which would further sway pro-military/pro-war public opinion, for either a potential re-invasion of Afghanistan, to be taken, at a later date; or direct American patriots' emotional feelings of defeat and revenge, towards to the US empire's all-or-nothing sights for war, with China and/or Russia, as is happening right now, as we speak.

The question is whether remaining American patriots will keep their sights on, who is their true enemy, and not be tempted, to fight another imperial war, with the Power Okole's implicit goal, of eradicating those same American patriots.

To be determined...

https://www.khon2.com/news/national/afghan-evacuee-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-children-at-fort-mccoy-in-wisconsin/

Bahrullah Noori, 20, is accused of using force to engage in a sexual act with a minor. He also faces three counts of engaging in a sexual act with a minor, one of which also alleges the use of force.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office said all of the accusers were younger than 16, and all were at least four years younger than Noori.

DOnt forget the guy who they let back in despite being deported by Trumps people for rape.

Trump and his policies were trying to return the US back into being the American republic again.  Hence, being the businessman he is, I truly believe, as much as he did not like China, he knew how China does business internationally, and was orchestrating America into taking their first baby steps away, from imperial invasion based economics, towards a more carrot and stick approach.

Similar to his attitude towards NATO, the de-occupation of Afghanistan would have been one, of his crowning achievements, during his presidency, and would have signaled the pivot away, of America's long-standing imperial foreign policy.  However, as I have repeated, ad nauseum, the oligarchical Power Okole that really runs the US empire had no interest in surrendering their dominion, just for the American citizenry, to regain their republic again.

Biden was allowed to become the current US imperial puppet president, in order, to purposely botch the de-occupation of Afghanistan and take the political blame, for the debacle; which would further sway pro-military/pro-war public opinion, for either a potential re-invasion of Afghanistan, to be taken, at a later date; or direct American patriots' emotional feelings of defeat and revenge, towards to the US empire's all-or-nothing sights for war, with China and/or Russia, as is happening right now, as we speak.

The question is whether remaining American patriots will keep their sights on, who is their true enemy, and not be tempted, to fight another imperial war, with the Power Okole's implicit goal, of eradicating those same American patriots.

To be determined...

Here's a thought, say Biden did nothing and let the Trump evac plan play out and was successful.  No cluster fuck at the air field and thousands of people coming, suicide bomber, etc....  Then Trump gets the praise.  Now on the other side, Biden messes up the withdraw and cause the media got his back, no harm, no foul.  Even though he changed the exit plans.  So this way Trump gets zero credit for anything because it was not successful. And say Bidens new plan did work, now he takes away the credit from Trump cause he changed the plan. So win, win for Biden.

I certainly think Afghanistan has been a long string of mistakes and am in no way defending the way the pullout was done.

I was talking to a retired airforce guy and he pointed out that in the military it was common to leave behind equipment that did not make sense logistically to bring back. So maybe the cost of shipping it back was too much or maybe it was not functional and not worth fixing if they did bring it back, or it was out of date, etc. That made me wonder, out of the list of equipment that was allegedly left behind, how much of it is actually works? So for example maybe we left 20 humvees but only 5 actually worked? It is possible that it isn't as bad as the list makes it seem. Just something to consider.

You are quite correct,  for example it takes about 10 hours of maintenance on a Black hawk for every flight hour.
They won't last long.
The problem is any classified equipment that was left behind and functional, hopefully that stuff was destroyed.
Most all our stuff has an export version and that is what we provide,
We do not sell our very best, eg the F-22.
IIRC the US bought Russian Mi-17 helicopters for the Afgans
because they couldn't maintain the UH-60's without American contractors.

This was a typical Democrat cluster fuk, but the real problem is Afganistan was
an illegal war and we should never do this again.
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan should be lessons,
Only Congress can declare war. not some UN resolution, Democrat, or RINO politician,
Only Congress!
 

.

You are quite correct,  for example it takes about 10 hours of maintenance on a Black hawk for every flight hour.
They won't last long.

SNIP

I posted a train of through along those lines.  Many years back, I did a project that was to maintain rotary platforms.  The amount of maintenance is staggering, if one is following the MFR's recommendations.  That said, I would think that if it wasn't followed, still quite functional, but just not safe or certified/inspected/passed. 

Not only maintenance on the engines, but stuff like for corrosion and wear and tear of the many parts.  The work on those birds was staggering. 

Trump and his policies were trying to return the US back into being the American republic again.  Hence, being the businessman he is, I truly believe, as much as he did not like China, he knew how China does business internationally, and was orchestrating America into taking their first baby steps away, from imperial invasion based economics, towards a more carrot and stick approach.

Similar to his attitude towards NATO, the de-occupation of Afghanistan would have been one, of his crowning achievements, during his presidency, and would have signaled the pivot away, of America's long-standing imperial foreign policy.  However, as I have repeated, ad nauseum, the oligarchical Power Okole that really runs the US empire had no interest in surrendering their dominion, just for the American citizenry, to regain their republic again.

Biden was allowed to become the current US imperial puppet president, in order, to purposely botch the de-occupation of Afghanistan and take the political blame, for the debacle; which would further sway pro-military/pro-war public opinion, for either a potential re-invasion of Afghanistan, to be taken, at a later date; or direct American patriots' emotional feelings of defeat and revenge, towards to the US empire's all-or-nothing sights for war, with China and/or Russia, as is happening right now, as we speak.

The question is whether remaining American patriots will keep their sights on, who is their true enemy, and not be tempted, to fight another imperial war, with the Power Okole's implicit goal, of eradicating those same American patriots.

To be determined...

"The question is whether remaining American patriots will keep their sights on, who is their true enemy, and not be tempted, to fight another imperial war,"

I'm a vet and a pretty hawkish sort of guy as far as protecting America.
The problem is pretty easy to define, but not so easy to fix.
Rather than do my usual bitch.
Our problem is an internal one.
And like all problems, one has to recognize that there is a problem
before you can take action to correct it,  the USA won't admit it has a problem.
I have to give a solution
Eliminate every constitutional amendment from 14 on.
Aloha.
 

You are quite correct,  for example it takes about 10 hours of maintenance on a Black hawk for every flight hour.
They won't last long.
The problem is any classified equipment that was left behind and functional, hopefully that stuff was destroyed.
Most all our stuff has an export version and that is what we provide,
We do not sell our very best, eg the F-22.
IIRC the US bought Russian Mi-17 helicopters for the Afgans
because they couldn't maintain the UH-60's without American contractors.

This was a typical Democrat cluster fuk, but the real problem is Afganistan was
an illegal war and we should never do this again.
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan should be lessons,
Only Congress can declare war. not some UN resolution, Democrat, or RINO politician,
Only Congress!
 

.

You're leaving out that Biden's admin changed the SOP to not allowing contractors to go there to maintain/teach PMCS for the equipment.  So like with Desert Storm, when we left Iraq, we left Sadaam with his air power, which is what helped him greatly squash the uprising.  History Channel mentioned it that this was 1 huge error on our part, allowing his aircraft to still operate.

Then the cluster fuck of a evacuation and the servers left behind, only to have a hack come about a few days later.  Flapp covered this previously.  And like always, the fake news has Biden's back.

I posted a train of through along those lines.  Many years back, I did a project that was to maintain rotary platforms.  The amount of maintenance is staggering, if one is following the MFR's recommendations.  That said, I would think that if it wasn't followed, still quite functional, but just not safe or certified/inspected/passed. 

Not only maintenance on the engines, but stuff like for corrosion and wear and tear of the many parts.  The work on those birds was staggering.

I was an avionics technician in the USAF. one of my Billets was Depot maintenance for F-106, F111, A-10 and other misc aircraft.
It is un-believable what we pay for and do to keep aircraft functional.
I am a former Boeing engineer and know a lot about Commercial aircraft,( up to B777),  military aircraft are far more complex
and abused.
The F-35 for example is cheap compared to a Eurofighter, but the life costs are what makes it so expensive.
 

I was an avionics technician in the USAF. one of my Billets was Depot maintenance for F-106, F111, A-10 and other misc aircraft.
It is un-believable what we pay for and do to keep aircraft functional.
I am a former Boeing engineer and know a lot about Commercial aircraft,( up to B777),  military aircraft are far more complex
and abused.
The F-35 for example is cheap compared to a Eurofighter, but the life costs are what makes it so expensive.
 

Rockhound:
You know we're sitting on four million pounds of fuel, one nuclear weapon and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder. Makes you feel good, doesn't it?

One of my all time fav movie quotes. . .