22lr for home defense? (Read 59181 times)

Funtimes

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #100 on: July 29, 2013, 12:04:06 PM »
For what its worth, over the last 20 of reading the NRA 'armed citizen', I guess I've read of a couple of dozen fatal resident-on-perp shootings in HD situations in which a 22 'revolver' was used. There are a lot of variables determining the fatal outcome I'm sure, but for what its worth.....
Also, remember a .25 or .380 JHP may be a good compromise as far as lethality vs earsaving, relative to earsplitters like 357 or 45.

I could see a .22lr revolver, that gets rid of the reliability issues for the most part - as long as you are using quality .22lr ammo.
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Posts are not legal advice & are my own, unless said so.

ButtNutt

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #101 on: July 29, 2013, 12:07:46 PM »

I could see a .22lr revolver, that gets rid of the reliability issues for the most part - as long as you are using quality .22lr ammo.
Yeah I agree. And I recall those articles specifically stating 22 'revolver'. They were very specific.

1422LR

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #102 on: July 29, 2013, 12:16:13 PM »
I am not here to say that the 22LR is the best.
All I am saying and probably many others feel the same way, like the Mossad, and other countries that there is a place for the 22LR in defensive operations as well as offensive.
It is lethal as “Iraqi vet” showed in the video much further than one can shoot accurate with the .22LR at least to 440 yrds by military standards.


http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/
Israeli Mossad .22 LRS
An enemy of Israel believes that he has successfully slipped away from the Mossad after his heinous act of terrorism. It’s a beautiful evening and time for a stroll. As the terrorist steps out of his apartment his chest is peppered with a handful of .22 Long Rifle bullets that immediately end his terrorist career. The only thing that the local police find is a dead terrorist and a small pile of .22 LR brass casings sprinkled close to the deceased.


http://www.onwardoverland.com/austday/skymarshals2.html
Air Marshals in Training
Israeli air marshals, among the first deployed, carried Beretta .22 autoloaders, relying on precise shot placement and multiple hits to eliminate a threat. It should be noted, too, that the Israelis carried their Berettas with the chamber empty and were trained to rack the slide as they brought the pistol into action.
At least some of the Jordanian air marshals have been equipped with suppressed .22 pistols.



http://filmcriticsunited.com/22bullets.html
22 Bullets
And if you shoot a guy 22 times maybe somebody should’ve thought of shooting him in the head.  Charly shoots people in the head. 

HUCKLEBUCK

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #103 on: July 29, 2013, 12:25:30 PM »

If noise is your biggest concern, I wouldn't worry about it.  First, I really wouldn't recommend a less-effective lifesaving tool; defending your life is much more important than protecting your hearing.  Second, a few gunshots aren't going to be that big of a deal.  Some folks seem to be convinced that firing a gun indoors without hearing protection will leave you looking like a bystander at the bombing of a discotheque, with blood running out your ears and instant stone deafness.  I've fired quite a few guns over the years without the benefit of hearing protection, such as when hunting, and my annual audiograms keep coming back satisfactory.  If the internet rumors about hearing loss had merit, everyone who was ever a bit slow getting their earmuffs back on after a cease-fire at the range would be learning American Sign Language right now.

For what its worth, I've fired a 45 and believe it or not, a 30 06 indoors in HD situations, and I can tell you this: in both cases I fired only once and was 110% deaf for about a minute. They were 30 and 20 yrs ago. I think my hearing is getting worse now but it seemed fine over the years since then. Just anecdotal info. 

This may be lame but my biggest concerns having those experiences, which involved a single perp, is

1) if I was confronted with more than one perp, how vulnerable I'd be during the period I wouldn't be able to hear a second perp coming through a window in another room or behind me
2) one of my dogs who is my child practically, is insanely sensitive to the home alarm, smoke detectors, any loud noises. And I'm afraid of how terrified she'd be and the damage to her hearing, if she was in the house during a shooting.

i know. Seriously lame. But anyone else worry about that. Or am I too attached to my dog?

mr snuffalupagus

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #104 on: July 29, 2013, 12:34:35 PM »
For serious work, where your life is on the  line,  ill take an earschplittenloudenboomer before I pick up a .22lr
And as for MDS's machete wielding maniac in a hotel room scenario... unless you TBox the bastard with 10 rounds from your dinky .22, he prolly aint stopping.

A mag dump in the head on an armed mover,  in a public building... sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to go to me... :crazy:  also shooting people in the head is usually scrutinized heavily in the aftermath of a shooting... I dont want to know what the lawyers and media will do if you do it 10 times at a sitting... they'll probably have some sort of anti gun orgasam or something.

2 or 3 9mm 40, or 45 cal JHP rounds through the COM should work nicely though...  and if it doesent, why... there are 7 more ready to be sent.


Anyway, any of you boys familliar with the internet gun forum troll personality "GUNKID" ?  (If not its worth a google search...)
 
Ive come across gunkid under several of his psudonyms over the years, mainly after his release from prison. Had allot of fun yanking his chain on perfect union, THR, and others...

   This MDS cat reminds me of him...

 

AmbuBadger

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2013, 12:35:46 PM »
I had a 22/45 and while I found it to be utterly reliable, I would have never considered it for HD. The ammo itself was to blame for the misfires I had, but I suppose if I absolutely HAD to use .22, then it would be a double action revolver or dead-reliable semi-auto rifle in .22 Mag. Otherwise, there are much better choices out there. I also don't subscribe to the notion that the two extra seconds it takes to put on ear protection will get you killed-- if the threat is that close, you're either an idiot because you can see him and still chose to don ear pro versus shooting him or you were good as dead anyway because you never saw the guy.

Whatever you choose to use, the bottom line is you gotta run the thing until you know it inside and out. The  mag not dropping free 100% of the time on my FNP was just an inconvenience until I did some drilling with it and found that it could get me killed if I had to reload fast. If OP has a .22 that he feels comfortable with, then so be it, but I would suggest something bigger. Personally, I'm going to shoot the machete-wielding intruder instead of letting him hack me up for the sake of preserving my hearing and saving neighbors from rounds that *might* miss or over penetrate.

For me and my girlfriend, I use a Mossberg 590 and she uses a Remmy 870, both loaded with Federal 00 buck with their Flite Control wad. I have patterned both guns at HD ranges and drill with them frequently. I chose the 870 for her because she has more control over it vs. a pistol, it's easier for her to chamber, and she can clear jams with it faster. Only in reloading does the pistol skills trump her 870.

stangzilla

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #106 on: July 30, 2013, 07:27:20 AM »
http://americanhandgunner.com/defensive-carry/

Quote

The “mouse gun” calibers (.22, .25 and .32), while easy to carry, have a very high failure rate as compared to the larger caliber cartridges. If the criminal is likely to be affected by a psychological stop (“Hey, I’m tired of getting shot, so I’ll stop.”), these rounds are as good as any others. I believe that’s why they compare favorably to the larger calibers in the statistic regarding the percentage of people stopped with one shot. Those are likely psychological stops rather than physical incapacitations.

While I agree any gun is better than no gun, I can’t advise you to carry pistols under .35 caliber. They work any many cases, but if you do happen to encounter a motivated attacker, they are far more likely to fail.

Kingkeoni

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2013, 07:36:40 AM »
http://americanhandgunner.com/defensive-carry/


"I collected data on nearly 2,000 shootings over the course of 10 years of research."

"While .22s are fun, and have and will be relied upon for defense, Greg’s research showed
them to be subpar when it comes to stopping fights against real adversaries."

"A bigger hole is statistically more likely to hit something vital than a smaller hole, all other factors being equal."

"The smaller-caliber rounds (.22, .25 and .32) had a failure rate roughly two to three times that of the larger-caliber rounds."

About the author: Greg Ellifritz is the full-time firearms and defensive-tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department and the president of Active Response Training. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a Master’s degree in Public Policy and Management and has been an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer’s Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached through his website at www.activeresponsetraining.net.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 07:41:41 AM by Kingkeoni »
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Cougar8045

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #108 on: July 30, 2013, 08:15:14 AM »
I am not here to say that the 22LR is the best.
All I am saying and probably many others feel the same way, like the Mossad, and other countries that there is a place for the 22LR in defensive operations as well as offensive.
It is lethal as “Iraqi vet” showed in the video much further than one can shoot accurate with the .22LR at least to 440 yrds by military standards.


http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/
Israeli Mossad .22 LRS
An enemy of Israel believes that he has successfully slipped away from the Mossad after his heinous act of terrorism. It’s a beautiful evening and time for a stroll. As the terrorist steps out of his apartment his chest is peppered with a handful of .22 Long Rifle bullets that immediately end his terrorist career. The only thing that the local police find is a dead terrorist and a small pile of .22 LR brass casings sprinkled close to the deceased.


http://www.onwardoverland.com/austday/skymarshals2.html
Air Marshals in Training
Israeli air marshals, among the first deployed, carried Beretta .22 autoloaders, relying on precise shot placement and multiple hits to eliminate a threat. It should be noted, too, that the Israelis carried their Berettas with the chamber empty and were trained to rack the slide as they brought the pistol into action.
At least some of the Jordanian air marshals have been equipped with suppressed .22 pistols.



http://filmcriticsunited.com/22bullets.html
22 Bullets
And if you shoot a guy 22 times maybe somebody should’ve thought of shooting him in the head.  Charly shoots people in the head.
Israeli assassins looking for a quiet tool to carry out wet work and air marshals trying to minimize the risk of damaging an airplane are apples and oranges compared to home defense. 
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

1422LR

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #109 on: July 30, 2013, 12:37:54 PM »
Israeli assassins looking for a quiet tool to carry out wet work and air marshals trying to minimize the risk of damaging an airplane are apples and oranges compared to home defense.

All I can say is that they needed to be highly effective, reliable and lethal.

Which is the best?  They all are, it depends on the surroundings  and your personal circumstances.


Here are some stats.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Every source I read has different recommendations. Some say Marshall's data is genius. Some say it is statistically impossible. Some like big heavy bullets. Some like lighter, faster bullets. There isn't any consensus. The more I read, the more confused I get.

One thing I remember reading that made a lot of sense to me was an article by

Massad Ayoob.

He came out with his own stopping power data around the time Marshall published Handgun Stopping Power. In the article, Ayoob took his critics to task. He suggested that if people didn't believe his data, they should collect their own and do their own analysis.



.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

vs
 
.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

(From the article)
Conclusion: I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet.

There isn't one.

And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 01:11:24 PM by 1422LR »

dirsh

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #110 on: July 30, 2013, 01:01:39 PM »
I'm going to buy a 22lr semi pistol anyway. it's going to be kept loaded in my handgun safe right next to my 9
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moosed

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Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #111 on: July 30, 2013, 01:34:28 PM »
As I said earlier here, there are just too many variables for ANY studies to give a good recommendation. 

Season of the year (in places other than tropical islands, of course):  Cooler temps mean more clothing to protect the target.  Many CCW in the Northern US carry different guns for different seasons to account for that.

Distance to target.

Experience of shooter.

Drugs/alcohol quantities in the target's system.

Body Mass Index of target.  Big, heavy., muscle-bound guys being shot with a .22 will just get angrier!

Etc., Etc.

There are so many variables and combinations that I doubt that information has ever been collected, let alone analyzed.

Again, there is no perfect tool for a given task in all circumstances.  Reading a study that shows a .22 pistol has the same effectiveness (statistically) for Home Defense as a 9mm or .45ACP is counter intuitive. 

I would submit, if a .22lr is just as good as its big brothers, and a .22 is just as reliable, why does the entire LEO community of the US not carry .22's as their primary side arms?

When law enforcement switches to .22's, I might consider it.  Otherwise, I think it's wise to trust what thousands of professions trust their own lives to every single day.
When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".

Kanakamaoli23

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #112 on: July 30, 2013, 10:23:53 PM »
I feel the biggest caliber that a homeowner can comfortable fire multiple shots in succession with is what should be used by any given person. At this point in time, the only thing my 110 lbs wife can fire comfortably is her mosquito. She is isn't yet comfortable shooting anything bigger so if she is not even comfortable shooting a .40 or my 10mm at the range under calm, controlled circumstances, I don't think I'd want her trying to use it in a real in home situation. I'd much rather her use what she is most comfortable with at this time. I'd rather her be confident with a smaller gun than shaky and uncomfortable with a larger caliber. Obviously .22 lr isn't the best self defense round, but I'd rather her get 1,2, or 3 rounds of .22 in a perp than zero with a 40 cal.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:32:43 PM by Kanakamaoli23 »

Funtimes

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #113 on: July 30, 2013, 11:29:10 PM »
Does anyone have a .22lr pistol that they feel is on the same level of reliability as say, their glock, m&p or other standard polymer pistol?
Check out the Hawaii Defense Foundation.
HDF on Facebook
Defender of the Accused in Arkansas Courts
Posts are not legal advice & are my own, unless said so.

Kingkeoni

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2013, 11:33:47 PM »
I feel the biggest caliber that a homeowner can comfortable fire multiple shots in succession with is what should be used by any given person. At this point in time, the only thing my 110 lbs wife can fire comfortably is her mosquito. She is isn't yet comfortable shooting anything bigger so if she is not even comfortable shooting a .40 or my 10mm at the range under calm, controlled circumstances, I don't think I'd want her trying to use it in a real in home situation. I'd much rather her use what she is most comfortable with at this time. I'd rather her be confident with a smaller gun than shaky and uncomfortable with a larger caliber. Obviously .22 lr isn't the best self defense round, but I'd rather her get 1,2, or 3 rounds of .22 in a perp than zero with a 40 cal.

You are correct.

Any gun is better than no gun.

Being able to fire accurate shots with the largest caliber you can reliably do it with is the most important aspect of using a firearm for HD.

In your wife's case, a 22lr might be the best choice.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Kanakamaoli23

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #115 on: July 31, 2013, 06:29:39 AM »
You are correct.

Any gun is better than no gun.

Being able to fire accurate shots with the largest caliber you can reliably do it with is the most important aspect of using a firearm for HD.

In your wife's case, a 22lr might be the best choice.

For now it is, but just as all things, with a little more practice I think she can become more comfortable with a bigger caliber and then I will feel better about her home defense options when I am not present.  :thumbsup:

Kanakamaoli23

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #116 on: July 31, 2013, 06:34:25 AM »
Does anyone have a .22lr pistol that they feel is on the same level of reliability as say, their glock, m&p or other standard polymer pistol?

I know a lot of people knock the mosquito on its reliability but we have found that if we use Remington viper ammo it really cut down the issues. We only had maybe 2 malfunctions in 100 rounds instead of the every other few rounds malfunction we were having with other ammo. I hated her gun until we can across the viper.

Kingkeoni

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2013, 07:08:50 AM »
For now it is, but just as all things, with a little more practice I think she can become more comfortable with a bigger caliber and then I will feel better about her home defense options when I am not present.  :thumbsup:

A pistol caliber carbine would be perfect for her.

My wife is small bit she shoots my Ruger PC9 extremely well.

Ita a 9mm carbine that takes pistol magazines (Ruger P series)

Here's a video of some kid shooting one


If you can find them, they're a great little carbine.
I found one a couple years back at a gun show.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:16:22 AM by Kingkeoni »
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Kanakamaoli23

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2013, 09:39:03 AM »
A pistol caliber carbine would be perfect for her.

My wife is small bit she shoots my Ruger PC9 extremely well.

Ita a 9mm carbine that takes pistol magazines (Ruger P series)

Here's a video of some kid shooting one


If you can find them, they're a great little carbine.
I found one a couple years back at a gun show.

thats really good advice. ive actually been looking into these little bad boys. its a complete upper for a glock pistol that equipts it with a 16 inch barrel and a m4 style butt stock. id love to get this upper for my glock 20 and have a 10 mm carbine. the company says they do ship to hawaii and ive asked around about the legality about such an item in hawaii. so far i cant find any reason it wouldnt be legal. also it ships to your door and doesnt require registration. ive called them and 10mm barrels for these uppers are back ordered a few months so i have some time to scrape the funds together. its a little spendy for the base model but basically for about 500 more dollar i can turn my g20 into a carbine.

http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.php

ButtNutt

Re: 22lr for home defense?
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2013, 08:14:00 PM »

Does anyone have a .22lr pistol that they feel is on the same level of reliability as say, their glock, m&p or other standard polymer pistol?
I'm sure this is not a surprise but my s&w 41 is as comfy and reliable as shooting an 'airgun' with my thumb and index finger. If there such a thing as a fat quad stacked maybe 52rd mag for it, that fit in the hollowed out fat grip, I might use it as a primary SD weapon; cause i think i could unload every round rapid fire into a bouncing golf ball at ten ft. :)  But I'd want the hicap mag to make up for the lack in stopping power.