2aHawaii
General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: paka808 on April 08, 2016, 06:23:07 PM
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So where's all the rail supporters now,i bet after all the fu#k ups they have had a change of heart..you know im not a genius but the first thing I would have checked into is can the electrical system we have now is up to par to power the rail.Not when the project is already started and moving forward.(idiots).man this project is going to suck the taxpayers dry.Sorry guys just venting.
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So where's all the rail supporters now,i bet after all the fu#k ups they have had a change of heart..you know im not a genius but the first thing I would have checked into is can the electrical system we have now is up to par to power the rail.Not when the project is already started and moving forward.(idiots).man this project is going to suck the taxpayers dry.Sorry guys just venting.
If you're talking about the politicians who are supporters of rail, they are no doubt snuggled up with the cash donations from the contractors awarded the design and construction contracts. No worries.
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What kind of terrorist are you sir? Proposing common sense, planning and forethought, that's the "old" way.
The "new" way is to forge ahead on feelings, dreams and hope :love: as well as other peoples money! :wacko:
The electrical system we have isn't even adequate for the infrastructure we have now, despite the billions that HECO rakes in. They can't even manage to keep it on if the wind blows a little hard. Just wait until all the buildings coming up now in Honolulu come on line and start drawing power, plus the Koa Ridge development, PLUS the rail.
These boneheads couldn't plan their way out of a wet paper sack.
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More of this
(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/solar-suck-up-the-sun.jpg)
or build this:
(https://npcontroversy.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/npp-3.jpg)
either way = MOAR taxes!!!! If they were wise enough to have foreign property investors help pay for our infrastructure....hmm...
All the politicians that rallied for rail will likely NOT use it! With all the kickbacks they can now move on up to the east side where the rail won't be messing things up for them.
And why the creation of a CEO for a public project? Wouldn't it make sense for this project to fall under a City dept.?
another related issue is the way rail is messing up the aina! Many times greater than a telescope sitting passively looking at the stars! The massive rail columns are plunged hundreds of feet into the earth!
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I have always kind of been on the fence on this issue. On the one hand I am sure there is waste left and right and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some corruption as well, but on the other hand I do think a rail system would serve the island well. Imagine if we tried to build this 20 years from now when we were more crowded.
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HECO's Honolulu power generation facility has been deactivated and mothballed for the last couple of years. That would tell me that they are getting enough power from wind and PV to idle that plant.
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my cousins husband is an engineer on the rail project. prior to the build, he was pro rail and excited about it while the rest of us.....not so much. we'd go out of our way to always bring up rail at gatherings.
conversation with him now: "hey....how's the rail project?"........"F*&%$^%ing Kiewitt Damn MotherF*&^%&ers!.......i hate them. HART Stupid A$%*&^^#@"........then he walks away shaking his head. we start laughing.
so no........no supporters where i am.
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I have said in earlier posts that I might be a supporter of rail if it were designed to serve the people who needed it the most, was of the type of construction that would have saved the taxpayer a lot of money over what we got, and if there was some sort of over sight committee that could remove any and all of the HART officials without asking them to remove themselves. Unfortunately, the rail does not have stations close to the people who would benefit the most from having the rail. The City Council decided on an overhead heavy rail system when they could have chosen a light rail system and at some locations run the rail on the ground where it is a lot cheaper to install per mile. The fact that the head of HART and the cronies underneath him cannot be removed shows they have no direct accountability.
And BTW I read somewhere that the proposed price of a ticket and the additional half percent sales tax that is supposed to be temporary is not enough to operate and maintain the rail project after it is built. Something our city council chose to ignore and not inform us of before they put it to a vote. The taxpayers were lied to and the people voted for this project based on the lies. And when enough evidence that the first vote was based on lies and half truths and not complete evidence it was presented to bring it to a vote again to stop the rail after it was started, that vote was not allowed.
I am not a supporter of the rail as it is currently designed and built. But even under all those conditions I probably would have still voted against it as the cost and the cost overruns would still be prohibitive. I worked on the rail for a year and a half. So I benefitted from the work. But I don't think the taxpayers are benefitting from this project nor will they in the future unless something drastic happens.
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They should have used the old Oahu L&R right of way for a on grade rail most of the right of way is open.
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The rail is ridiculous, I said it from the start, if people still have to drive their cars or bus it to the stations just to get on the rail, it is useless. In major cities where rail has been successful (i.e. Tokyo, Hong Kong, Toronto) the rail serves a densely populated area within the heart of the city, where passengers would benefit most from having stops and stations near their destinations. But no, Hawaii's rail does not do that, it only serves to transport a certain region of people (central and westside) to town, and that's it, there is no added utility other than that.
Furthermore, nobody suggested to incorporate sustainable energy (i.e. pv panels or hybrid technology like you would find in toyota camry hybrids) into the rail system. They could have, at the very least, incorporated a pv system on the roof of the train cars, or on the roofs on the stop-station structures. But no, we love to think INSIDE the box, innovation is NOT in our blood, and there is ZERO determination to set a global standard, we love to think locally, and that is not a solution, it's a problem.
The rail is, was, and will be a fiasco. The past, present, and future of Hawaii folks.
Furthermore, THE RAIL SERVES TO BENEFIT ONLY A CERTAIN REGION OF PEOPLE, and for a trivial cause: to relieve TRAFFIC. What I mean by this is, for example, folks in Waimanalo, Kaneohe, East Honolulu, North Shore, Laie, and I can venture to say Maui, Kauai, Big Island, simply do not and will not ever need to use the rail, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT SERVE THEIR LOCATIONS. SO WHY WOULD THEY PAY FOR SOMETHING THEY WOULD NEVER UTILIZE? I call babooze alert on the a-holes that pushed the rail through...... it's a scam, a sham, corruption, and Kiewit and all the other contractors are the only ones gaining financially....... >:( >:( :( :(
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it's a scam, a sham, corruption, and Kiewit and all the other contractors are the only ones gaining financially....... >:( >:( :( :(
not the only ones-
politicians and unions...
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The rail is ridiculous, I said it from the start, if people still have to drive their cars or bus it to the stations just to get on the rail, it is useless. In major cities where rail has been successful (i.e. Tokyo, Hong Kong, Toronto) the rail serves a densely populated area within the heart of the city, where passengers would benefit most from having stops and stations near their destinations. But no, Hawaii's rail does not do that, it only serves to transport a certain region of people (central and westside) to town, and that's it, there is no added utility other than that.
Furthermore, nobody suggested to incorporate sustainable energy (i.e. pv panels or hybrid technology like you would find in toyota camry hybrids) into the rail system. They could have, at the very least, incorporated a pv system on the roof of the train cars, or on the roofs on the stop-station structures. But no, we love to think INSIDE the box, innovation is NOT in our blood, and there is ZERO determination to set a global standard, we love to think locally, and that is not a solution, it's a problem.
The rail is, was, and will be a fiasco. The past, present, and future of Hawaii folks.
Furthermore, THE RAIL SERVES TO BENEFIT ONLY A CERTAIN REGION OF PEOPLE, and for a trivial cause: to relieve TRAFFIC. What I mean by this is, for example, folks in Waimanalo, Kaneohe, East Honolulu, North Shore, Laie, and I can venture to say Maui, Kauai, Big Island, simply do not and will not ever need to use the rail, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT SERVE THEIR LOCATIONS. SO WHY WOULD THEY PAY FOR SOMETHING THEY WOULD NEVER UTILIZE? I call babooze alert on the a-holes that pushed the rail through...... it's a scam, a sham, corruption, and Kiewit and all the other contractors are the only ones gaining financially....... >:( >:( :( :(
Not exactly true. The people on the windward side could still benefit from a standpoint of reduced traffic. Reduced cars on the road can have a ripple of positive effects, I don't think it is fair to suggest it will only have one narrow benefit. The rail could always be added to as well to serve people living in central Oahu for example.
Now don't get me wrong, I have my criticisms of the rail system too but loo at the overall picture, the bad and the good.
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Not exactly true. The people on the windward side could still benefit from a standpoint of reduced traffic. Reduced cars on the road can have a ripple of positive effects, I don't think it is fair to suggest it will only have one narrow benefit. The rail could always be added to as well to serve people living in central Oahu for example.
Now don't get me wrong, I have my criticisms of the rail system too but loo at the overall picture, the bad and the good.
I await with great anticipation for an independent investigator/auditor to publish the results of the "reduced cars on the road" and "ripple of positive effects" study. I assume you mean "ripple of positive effects" other than to the wallets of politicians, contractors and unions.
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Not exactly true. The people on the windward side could still benefit from a standpoint of reduced traffic. Reduced cars on the road can have a ripple of positive effects, I don't think it is fair to suggest it will only have one narrow benefit. The rail could always be added to as well to serve people living in central Oahu for example.
Now don't get me wrong, I have my criticisms of the rail system too but loo at the overall picture, the bad and the good.
We need more emojis for me to respond here. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I await with great anticipation for an independent investigator/auditor to publish the results of the "reduced cars on the road" and "ripple of positive effects" study. I assume you mean "ripple of positive effects" other than to the wallets of politicians, contractors and unions.
It was already done, before the first tax dollar was wasted. It was ignored, and people still spew the "It'll help with traffic" line.
I don't know where to find it now, but I'll look. The result of the the study showed that traffic would be reduced by a whopping 1% at the projected time of the projects completion.
To add insult to injury, the study was sponsored by the government.
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and then there's this:
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/30736814/hart-launches-free-shuttle-rides-to-compensate-businesses-hit-by-construction
and i believe they were offering businesses affected a flyer or coupon book........to give discounts after losing 25%-50% of their sales. yeah.......that makes sense.
:shake: :shake: :shake:
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and then there's this:
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/30736814/hart-launches-free-shuttle-rides-to-compensate-businesses-hit-by-construction
and i believe they were offering businesses affected a flyer or coupon book........to give discounts after losing 25%-50% of their sales. yeah.......that makes sense.
:shake: :shake: :shake:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
What an insult! That's just like offering a band-aid with a touch of Robitussin to a person with a compound fracture.
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Not exactly true. The people on the windward side could still benefit from a standpoint of reduced traffic. Reduced cars on the road can have a ripple of positive effects, I don't think it is fair to suggest it will only have one narrow benefit. The rail could always be added to as well to serve people living in central Oahu for example.
Now don't get me wrong, I have my criticisms of the rail system too but loo at the overall picture, the bad and the good.
you have a good point to which I have a rebuttal to your "reduced cars on the road" argument: Not to digress from my main points stated above but to reiterate a standpoint that I have taken and posted about previously in a different thread: I am willing of all the west side and central oahu inhabitants who are current vehicle owners and daily vehicle commuters, a large majority will not simply forfeit the utility, convenience, and freedom of their vehicles in order to add to their commute time, decrease the utility of convenience of their owned vehicles, and furthermore pay additional out of pocket costs to use the rail once it is completed.
hypothetical but realistic example: I am a car owner and use it as a daily driver. If i lived in millilani, for example, and all else remained the same, I would NEVER forfeit the utility and convenience of my already owned vehicle to commute to the rail station, which further adds to my commute time at a decreased convenience factor in order to pay $5/one way, or whatever ungodly amount they might start charging, in order to board the rail train to go to work everyday. What if I have a hot date or dinner plans after work? Or an emergency occurs and my (hypothetical) child needs to be picked up from school? I would be kicking myself in the ass saying "why did i take the rail today? Why didn't I drive today?!?!" I would be stuck in town with no options, except the rail, to get back to the millilani, where I would have to commute from the rail stop back to my home.
Furthermore for the active 2aHI preppers here: what will happen if we have a tsunami warning? sudden earthquake? island-wide flash flood? hurricane? will the rail train still operate? have these contingencies been made abundantly clear to taxpayers? can folks rely on it to be operative in spite of adverse weather conditions? No, folks cannot. can folks rely on their vehicles and their feet and willpower to get them home in spite of adverse weather conditions? yes, at least more so than the rail.
Furthermore, what if I was a daily rail user, and the rails breaks down one day (much like the zip mobile broke down that one horrendous day of traffic), how the hell am I to get home in a timely and convenient fashion? Bus? $80 uber ride? hell no...
So why invest billions into something for which our political leaders cannot substantiate absolute answers for?
This illustrates the situation that exists for many central and ewa/west side inhabitants who enjoy the convenience and freedom of their vehicles. I am simply putting myself in the shoes of a millilani/ewa/westside inhabitant.
The "ripple effect" is at the most a hopeful outlook. Everyday the same places are clogged up with traffic at the same times, and many of those places are not west of Red Hill, Fort Shafter, where traffic seems to gather. I've used the traffic function on google maps enough to witness these patterns. How will the rail positively affect traffic in Kahaluu where the same number of people are funneled into the same 2 lane road in order to get back to their homes on east coast (Laie, Punalu`u, Hau`ula, Kualoa, Malaekahana) of oahu? How will the rail positively affect the traffic jam of people into and out of Lanikai? How will the rail positively affect the mass exodus of East siders who primarily use the Pali Highway to get the town? How can those inhabitant benefit directly from the rail? They can't. The rail does not serve the vast majority of Oahu's neighborhoods.
Through these "narrow" details I am very much analyzing the large picture.
The rail may have multiple benefits but IMO the drawbacks and hassles outweigh them by large margins, and their are zero direct benefits to a vast majority of Oahu's inhabitants (not even talking about non-Oahu inhabitants).
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sorry for the long-winded response, but I have been a rail opponent ever since ever, and I have some really poignant questions that have no answers
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It was already done, before the first tax dollar was wasted. It was ignored, and people still spew the "It'll help with traffic" line.
I don't know where to find it now, but I'll look. The result of the the study showed that traffic would be reduced by a whopping 1% at the projected time of the projects completion.
To add insult to injury, the study was sponsored by the government.
It was 2% I believe however it was also mischaracterized. I cannot remember the exact details but the number had to do with the overall number of cars on the roads however opponents claimed it meant only a 2% reduction in traffic during rush hour. The study was used dishonestly or inaccurately by opponents. I will see if I can dig up the specifics of the issue.
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you have a good point to which I have a rebuttal to your "reduced cars on the road" argument: Not to digress from my main points stated above but to reiterate a standpoint that I have taken and posted about previously in a different thread: I am willing of all the west side and central oahu inhabitants who are current vehicle owners and daily vehicle commuters, a large majority will not simply forfeit the utility, convenience, and freedom of their vehicles in order to add to their commute time, decrease the utility of convenience of their owned vehicles, and furthermore pay additional out of pocket costs to use the rail once it is completed.
This could be something that would take time, people would have to get used to the idea of not having their car. That being said, over time I do think people will get used to a rail system. The ever increasing cost of parking, ever increasing traffic, increasing fuel prices, etc will make the rail more attractive. I would also contend that many will see a reduced commute time rather than an increased commute time as you suggest. Also that commute time can be used to do things such as study, read, sleep, crochet, etc. When I lived in Japan I had ditch my luxuries of driving everywhere I wanted and taking the train system. I didn't immediately like having to walk everywhere but I got used to it over time. I am not saying it will be an easy sell or that we will see instant results, but when it grows on people I think they will begin to accept and even like it.
Consider also the benefit of a possible reduction in drunk drivers. I can go home wasted without putting anyone in danger at a fraction the cost of a taxi.
hypothetical but realistic example: I am a car owner and use it as a daily driver. If i lived in millilani, for example, and all else remained the same, I would NEVER forfeit the utility and convenience of my already owned vehicle to commute to the rail station, which further adds to my commute time at a decreased convenience factor in order to pay $5/one way, or whatever ungodly amount they might start charging, in order to board the rail train to go to work everyday. What if I have a hot date or dinner plans after work? Or an emergency occurs and my (hypothetical) child needs to be picked up from school? I would be kicking myself in the ass saying "why did i take the rail today? Why didn't I drive today?!?!" I would be stuck in town with no options, except the rail, to get back to the millilani, where I would have to commute from the rail stop back to my home.
How did people live without cell phones 30 years ago? They managed. I would point back to my experiences in Japan to answer your question. They still face the same issues you raise but they decide to take the train. Ditto on your issue about national emergencies.
Now this is not to say everyone would sell all their cars. In Japan many families own 1 car and use it on occasions where a train just wouldn't work.
Sooner or later traffic and parking will be so bad that no one will want to drive. But at that point, building a rail system will be a lot harder and more expensive to build.
Furthermore, what if I was a daily rail user, and the rails breaks down one day (much like the zip mobile broke down that one horrendous day of traffic), how the hell am I to get home in a timely and convenient fashion? Bus? $80 uber ride? hell no...
How is this any different than when fatality occurs or some guy with a crane on a truck takes out an overpass?
This illustrates the situation that exists for many central and ewa/west side inhabitants who enjoy the convenience and freedom of their vehicles. I am simply putting myself in the shoes of a millilani/ewa/westside inhabitant.
I live Kaneohe so I won't get any direct benefit, however I do believe that rush hour commute into town will be less for me given that I won't be merging into as much traffic on the town side. The bus system in Mililani is pretty decent, most residences do not have a long walk to a bus stop. They would have to catch a bus that goes down to a station along the rail line. It may be hard to imagine but it does end up making sense.
The rail may have multiple benefits but IMO the drawbacks and hassles outweigh them by large margins, and their are zero direct benefits to a vast majority of Oahu's inhabitants (not even talking about non-Oahu inhabitants).
I personally could foresee this just being the beginning of a larger rail system, one that goes up through central Oahu and also serves Waikiki and UH.
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I have always kind of been on the fence on this issue. On the one hand I am sure there is waste left and right and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some corruption as well, but on the other hand I do think a rail system would serve the island well. Imagine if we tried to build this 20 years from now when we were more crowded.
Here's the kicker...........RAIL only works if it is crowded. You need pretty much most of the ridership to live within 1/2 mile max of the support stations. Once you pass this distance it's more feasible to run buses.
All the buildup of housing in Kakaako............if you supported RAIL, then you support this even if you don't realize it.
HECO's Honolulu power generation facility has been deactivated and mothballed for the last couple of years. That would tell me that they are getting enough power from wind and PV to idle that plant.
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RAIL is supposed to have support plants, stations, maintenance facilities to support the new service. The infrastructure as it is now will not support RAIL.
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It was 2% I believe however it was also mischaracterized. I cannot remember the exact details but the number had to do with the overall number of cars on the roads however opponents claimed it meant only a 2% reduction in traffic during rush hour. The study was used dishonestly or inaccurately by opponents. I will see if I can dig up the specifics of the issue.
I believe it was Prevedorous/ Cayetano that put the numbers forth, but I can't find evidence of a specific study.
There was another "study" of sorts, by a guy I now believe was Rep. McDermmot {sp?} I didn't know who he was then. My old employer was based in Kapolei, this guy did a door to door survey in the Kapolei/Ewa Beach area to ask who would actually use the rail if it was built. This was back when they were still trying to get the measure on the ballot. I happened to be in the shop when he stopped by to ask us. The conclusion was very interesting. Many people thought it was a good idea, but then said they wouldn't be using it, though they thought their neighbors would. I've forgotten the actual numbers he had, but they were well above 90% on the side of not using it. The only people that consistently said they would use it were people that were already taking the bus to work in town.
In any case, traffic is unlikely to be impacted by this to any significant extent.
This will be my last comment on the subject as arguing with you is like wiping my butt with a hoop, it never ends...
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Under the Harris admin. the consulting firm hired by the city stated that BRT would be the best transit option for Honolulu. The firm found that BRT would be much more affordable to build and maintain than heavy rail and it would be a better fit with less disruption to our infrastructure. BRT would also be able to cover a wider area and provide more flexibility. The consulting firm under Mufi did an about face and advised building heavy rail that would service a narrow corridor that would include Waikiki, and UH Manoa. We now know that NONE of these areas will be covered with out spending a lot more money. If I am not mistaken the same firm was hired by both admins.
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For everyone that is interested in the timeline and history of our rail project:
http://fixoahu.blogspot.com/
Enjoy!!!
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This could be something that would take time, people would have to get used to the idea of not having their car. That being said, over time I do think people will get used to a rail system. The ever increasing cost of parking, ever increasing traffic, increasing fuel prices, etc will make the rail more attractive. I would also contend that many will see a reduced commute time rather than an increased commute time as you suggest. Also that commute time can be used to do things such as study, read, sleep, crochet, etc. When I lived in Japan I had ditch my luxuries of driving everywhere I wanted and taking the train system. I didn't immediately like having to walk everywhere but I got used to it over time. I am not saying it will be an easy sell or that we will see instant results, but when it grows on people I think they will begin to accept and even like it.
Consider also the benefit of a possible reduction in drunk drivers. I can go home wasted without putting anyone in danger at a fraction the cost of a taxi.
How did people live without cell phones 30 years ago? They managed. I would point back to my experiences in Japan to answer your question. They still face the same issues you raise but they decide to take the train. Ditto on your issue about national emergencies.
Now this is not to say everyone would sell all their cars. In Japan many families own 1 car and use it on occasions where a train just wouldn't work.
Sooner or later traffic and parking will be so bad that no one will want to drive. But at that point, building a rail system will be a lot harder and more expensive to build.
How is this any different than when fatality occurs or some guy with a crane on a truck takes out an overpass?
I live Kaneohe so I won't get any direct benefit, however I do believe that rush hour commute into town will be less for me given that I won't be merging into as much traffic on the town side. The bus system in Mililani is pretty decent, most residences do not have a long walk to a bus stop. They would have to catch a bus that goes down to a station along the rail line. It may be hard to imagine but it does end up making sense.
I personally could foresee this just being the beginning of a larger rail system, one that goes up through central Oahu and also serves Waikiki and UH.
I am intrigued by your past living in Japan, which probably adds to your unwavering hope in seeing the rail succeed. I just came back from a 1 week tour of Tokyo and surrounding areas, my first, loved it, never used the metro though, we traveled to the tourist spots by bus/motor coach, in comfort. I very much want to go back as a tourist, i looked up living expenses in Japan earlier today to entertain the thought of moving there and working as an English teacher, let's just say, not gonna happen, at least for now, the high quality of living there comes at a hefty price in dollars and time.
Anywho, the interconnected-ness of Japan's rail system was decades in the making, and it was the result I believe of necessity. Tokyo itself is a very large metropolitan area. Tokyo proper, I would venture to estimate, is probably larger than Oahu itself, with a much higher population and density. Their rail system benefits from their way of life: they maintain extreme cleanliness and a grand sense of respect for public space, a level that nowhere in US could ever be compared to. Their rail system benefits from this.
However it is completely imprudent to assume that our rail system will be anywhere near as safe, clean, and free of vulgarians as Japan's.
Oahu's infrastructure is rooted in roadways. You are saying that the existence of the rail will somehow cause people to change behavior, particularly their use of vehicles, over a course of several decades. This is so farfetched an idea. If that was the case then some of the rail's budget should have went towards changing people's behavior today, like incentives to use the bus, or maybe even expanding the bus system, which as you've said, works well, I very much agree. I have also suggested expansion of the bus system previously in another topic. I think our bus system is good, now. But if we invested just a fraction of the rail's cost, say $1 billion, the bus system could alleviate traffic more than the rail ever could. Currently the my closest bus stop is a 15 minute walk from my house, literally up a hill, down a dirty roadway with a shoddy sidewalk, and through a strip mall (Salt Lake shopping center), and an up to 20 minute wait for my #3 bus just to get on it. walking up that damn hill on my way home is a PITA albeit good exercise. But, if there was a bus stop at the edge of my cul de sac, and if my #3 was "garaunteed" to pass by, with the same reliability of Tokyo's metro timing, every >15 minutes, I would gladly keep my Toyota Camry Hybrid in the garage and opt to use the bus. But its not, and the #3 which services Kaimuki all the way Salt Lake (a 14 mile route one way) is ALWAYS packed with Salt Lakers who live in the Salt Lake's "corridor of condominiums." If they added a mere 3 more buses to the #3 route during peak traffic times I would consider using the bus sometimes, but no, they stingy. To compare, the #1 route which services mainly a large loop around downtown Honolulu is garaunteed to pass by any of its stops every 10 minutes, much more convenient and reliable.
Most of today's taxpayers will not be here 30, 40 years from now to see the transformation, to see if there is a benefit or to see if their investment was a huge waste of money. There are so many unanswered questions, so many what if's and maybe's that this project should have never been initiated. A project of this magnitude should have taken a decade of analysis to prove that it would benefit Hawaii's society, that analysis never happened.
As I said, the questions, the if's and's and but's that were overlooked, that never succumbed to scientific dissertion is evidence that the decision was made by a few, and without proper analysis. A successful project is not one that has half-assed beginnings that requires bandages over the next decades to make work. Japan's rails weren't built half ass, they were carefully planned, every single expense.
On a side note, interestingly the H3 costed $80 million per mile to construct (top speed 80 mph), and it has duality of purpose: to transport people quickly from East to West and, like the rest of the United State's vast interstate system, to the connect military bases. The maglev bullet train in Japan costed $1 billion per mile to construct (regular speed ~260 mph). So we are looking at a figure somewhere between $80 million to $1 billion per mile for the HART. Which do you think will it end up being closer to?
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Oahu's infrastructure is rooted in roadways. You are saying that the existence of the rail will somehow cause people to change behavior, particularly their use of vehicles, over a course of several decades. This is so farfetched an idea. If that was the case then some of the rail's budget should have went towards changing people's behavior today, like incentives to use the bus, or maybe even expanding the bus system, which as you've said, works well, I very much agree. I have also suggested expansion of the bus system previously in another topic. I think our bus system is good, now. But if we invested just a fraction of the rail's cost, say $1 billion, the bus system could alleviate traffic more than the rail ever could. Currently the my closest bus stop is a 15 minute walk from my house, literally up a hill, down a dirty roadway with a shoddy sidewalk, and through a strip mall (Salt Lake shopping center), and an up to 20 minute wait for my #3 bus just to get on it. walking up that damn hill on my way home is a PITA albeit good exercise. But, if there was a bus stop at the edge of my cul de sac, and if my #3 was "garaunteed" to pass by, with the same reliability of Tokyo's metro timing, every >15 minutes, I would gladly keep my Toyota Camry Hybrid in the garage and opt to use the bus. But its not, and the #3 which services Kaimuki all the way Salt Lake (a 14 mile route one way) is ALWAYS packed with Salt Lakers who live in the Salt Lake's "corridor of condominiums." If they added a mere 3 more buses to the #3 route during peak traffic times I would consider using the bus sometimes, but no, they stingy. To compare, the #1 route which services mainly a large loop around downtown Honolulu is garaunteed to pass by any of its stops every 10 minutes, much more convenient and reliable.
We may have to agree to disagree. Traffic will only get worse and the costs of commuting by car will only go up which will push people more and more to consider riding the train.
Like it or not, Oahu being "rooted in its roadways" is not something that is going to be feasible forever.
I am in favor of the rail system in the sense that Ido think the rail is necessary but I have many criticisms about the way it is being carried out.
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Everywhere I lived with a train was awesome. I used it all the time. This, however, I will never use. It's a total scam.
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We all know the rail is useless and simply a way to pay back big money political supporters.
Waste of money, literally no effect on traffic, financial drain on our kids.
Thanks and Congrats to Ernie Martin for STARTING to clean up the Rail "problem" :thumbsup:
Now if we can start nailing some of these POS's on extortion, we might be able to get some of that wasted money back.
Of course, they'll probably need to appropriate several million for analyst, legal teams, housing same etc... :crazy:
They've built so much already too much to tear down, I think they should finish it with out rail and train and turn it into a contra-flow lane ! :geekdanc:
Option 2 to reduce future traffic is to stop people from moving here. :wacko: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I heard this morning on the news that HART is holding off opening the bids for the second half (stadium to Ala Moana) segment and stations. They did not say why. If they wait too long it will cost us even more because there will no longer be a smooth transition between general contractors and sub contractors when the first half ends and the second half starts. To me this is deceptive because HART does not want the public to hear the reality of the total cost of the project. The second half of the rail is going to be much more difficult and take longer to construct than the first half. Which means the second half will cost Honolulu tax payers more than the first half which is already over budget by more than a BILLION dollars. :o
Don't be surprised if the rail project is stopped right at the stadium for the next 20 years. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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http://khon2.com/2016/04/12/hawaii-has-2nd-highest-tax-burden-in-the-country/ (http://khon2.com/2016/04/12/hawaii-has-2nd-highest-tax-burden-in-the-country/)
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We may have to agree to disagree. Traffic will only get worse and the costs of commuting by car will only go up which will push people more and more to consider riding the train.
Like it or not, Oahu being "rooted in its roadways" is not something that is going to be feasible forever.
I am in favor of the rail system in the sense that Ido think the rail is necessary but I have many criticisms about the way it is being carried out.
The rail line is fixed. People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus. They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination. Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.
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I heard this morning on the news that HART is holding off opening the bids for the second half (stadium to Ala Moana) segment and stations. They did not say why. If they wait too long it will cost us even more because there will no longer be a smooth transition between general contractors and sub contractors when the first half ends and the second half starts. To me this is deceptive because HART does not want the public to hear the reality of the total cost of the project. The second half of the rail is going to be much more difficult and take longer to construct than the first half. Which means the second half will cost Honolulu tax payers more than the first half which is already over budget by more than a BILLION dollars. :o
Don't be surprised if the rail project is stopped right at the stadium for the next 20 years. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
There will not be any smooth transition from Kiewit to whoever wins the next segment of rail.
The scuttlebutt has been for quite some time that Kiewit would not bid the next phase of the rail project.
Will the next part of rail cost more............probably just because you are getting into the more dense urban core than Kapolei and Waipahu. Deceptive, I dunno about that. If you want the price just take HARTs estimates and bump them up 50%+.
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by the time they finish this rail project technology will move ahead and people will be using this...
(http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2013/09/12/star-trek-transporter-1280jpg-883390_1280w.jpg)
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The rail line is fixed. People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus. They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination. Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.
What I heard so long ago, once the rail is done, the bus routes will be re-routed to feed the rail.
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What I heard so long ago, once the rail is done, the bus routes will be re-routed to feed the rail.
You WILL take the train. You LIKE the train. The train is GOOD. You're THANKFUL for the politicians who built the train for you. You WILL take the train.
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If enough people don't use the rail, they'll just make H1 a "Toll Road", and only the people who are driving those evil gas operated vehicles will be punished! :shake:
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We may have to agree to disagree.
unfortunate! but ok
its not like we can take bets to see who is more correct 30 years from now....
wait... can we?
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You WILL take the train. You LIKE the train. The train is GOOD. You're THANKFUL for the politicians who built the train for you. You WILL take the train.
Jedi mind trick?! :shake:
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The rail line is fixed. People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus. They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination. Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.
Not true, when I lived in Japan I had to take two trains. If it is designed well and runs smoothly it works. People just have to get over their laziness.
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unfortunate! but ok
its not like we can take bets to see who is more correct 30 years from now....
wait... can we?
I plan on still being alive by then!
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There will not be any smooth transition from Kiewit to whoever wins the next segment of rail.
The scuttlebutt has been for quite some time that Kiewit would not bid the next phase of the rail project.
Will the next part of rail cost more............probably just because you are getting into the more dense urban core than Kapolei and Waipahu. Deceptive, I dunno about that. If you want the price just take HARTs estimates and bump them up 50%+.
I was told that Kiewit has not bid for the second half of the project. The bids are already in. I was told that Kiewit is losing money on this project. How true that is I cannot say.
The first half of the concrete guideway columns were mostly drilled into dry, above the water table, shafts where the bedrock was less than or around 100' in depth. Shafts can be drilled in a day or two and use just a drill rig. The second half of the of the concrete guideway columns are almost all wet shafts, drilled below the water table, with depths of 200' plus. Shafts will take a week plus to drill and requires specialized drilling equipment to deal with the wet conditions in the shafts. This does not include much larger and heavier cranes that are required and more Union Operators and Union Laborers to operate the additional equipment. Yeah, it could take a minimum of 2 or 3 times longer just to build the second half. That translates into a minimum of 2-3 times higher costs over the first half. Probably more like 4-5 times IMHO. Whether the more urban area has any affect on the cost, I can't say.
To me, it doesn't look good. We were sold a bill of goods and we are going to pay dearly. And I wouldn't be surprised if the 0.50% GET increase finds its way to the outer islands eventually.
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I also want to add that the precast yard is another issue. Kiewit built the precast yard but I don't don't know how much of it is owned by Kiewit or HART? I believe the specialized equipment used in the yard is owned by Kiewit. So how will all of this pan out when the new contractor takes over is unknown at this time. If Kiewit owns the whole yard (Not including land) then they could possibly just tear the whole thing down and take it back to the mainland with them. If they want to rent it or sell it to the next contractor that is always a possibility. The worst case scenario is they tear it down. In this case the new contractor will probably have to build their own yard. It took Kiewit about a year to build the current yard. Plus the specialized equipment that Kiewit owns is quite expensive and I doubt there is any on island outside of any publicly owned precast yards already on the island. Just building the new plant could set the project back a year.
It really does not look good for this project for the future IMHO.
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I was told that Kiewit has not bid for the second half of the project. The bids are already in. I was told that Kiewit is losing money on this project. How true that is I cannot say.
The first half of the concrete guideway columns were mostly drilled into dry, above the water table, shafts where the bedrock was less than or around 100' in depth. Shafts can be drilled in a day or two and use just a drill rig. The second half of the of the concrete guideway columns are almost all wet shafts, drilled below the water table, with depths of 200' plus. Shafts will take a week plus to drill and requires specialized drilling equipment to deal with the wet conditions in the shafts. This does not include much larger and heavier cranes that are required and more Union Operators and Union Laborers to operate the additional equipment. Yeah, it could take a minimum of 2 or 3 times longer just to build the second half. That translates into a minimum of 2-3 times higher costs over the first half. Probably more like 4-5 times IMHO. Whether the more urban area has any affect on the cost, I can't say.
To me, it doesn't look good. We were sold a bill of goods and we are going to pay dearly. And I wouldn't be surprised if the 0.50% GET increase finds its way to the outer islands eventually.
years ago a friend of mine used to work at foremost dairies right along the proposed rail line. they were building another building and loading dock which he could see out of his office. he watched as they would piledrive concrete pylons and they would suddenly disappear into the ground one after the other. i've heard there are voids and underground water tables throughout the area. how much of this is true and what it would affect, i don't know.
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years ago a friend of mine used to work at foremost dairies right along the proposed rail line. they were building another building and loading dock which he could see out of his office. he watched as they would piledrive concrete pylons and they would suddenly disappear into the ground one after the other. i've heard there are voids and underground water tables throughout the area. how much of this is true and what it would affect, i don't know.
I have heard the same thing
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years ago a friend of mine used to work at foremost dairies right along the proposed rail line. they were building another building and loading dock which he could see out of his office. he watched as they would piledrive concrete pylons and they would suddenly disappear into the ground one after the other. i've heard there are voids and underground water tables throughout the area. how much of this is true and what it would affect, i don't know.
(http://northeast-estates.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/14537494976258-enhanced-buzz-23037-1386650170-9.jpg)
http://easyhikerhawaii.blogspot.com/2012/07/moiliili-karst.html (http://easyhikerhawaii.blogspot.com/2012/07/moiliili-karst.html)
http://www.alohafrom808.com/2012/06/moiliili-karst-cave-exploration-june-2012/ (http://www.alohafrom808.com/2012/06/moiliili-karst-cave-exploration-june-2012/)
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years ago a friend of mine used to work at foremost dairies right along the proposed rail line. they were building another building and loading dock which he could see out of his office. he watched as they would piledrive concrete pylons and they would suddenly disappear into the ground one after the other. i've heard there are voids and underground water tables throughout the area. how much of this is true and what it would affect, i don't know.
All of the geologic surveys have been done. Test drillings are complete, samples have been taken and have been fully analyzed. They know within a few feet when they are going to hit bedrock and they know that they are going to be drilling into the water table. There should be very few if any surprises. Not saying that surprises cannot happen. But they pretty well know what they are getting into.
On a different note it would be quite sad and damaging to their equipment if they ran into a concrete pile that they didn't expect. :shake: :shake: :shake: Maybe the work of the Menehune? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Quote from: GZire on April 12, 2016, 06:29:45 PM
The rail line is fixed. People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus. They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination. Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.
Not true, when I lived in Japan I had to take two trains. If it is designed well and runs smoothly it works. People just have to get over their laziness.
Two completely different scenarios. The one you just mentioned is like catching a plane to catch a connecting flight. Totally within reason.
With Oahu why would anyone expect someone to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus to their destination? It won't happen and it's nothing about laziness it's about efficiency of time and cost.
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I was told that Kiewit has not bid for the second half of the project. The bids are already in. I was told that Kiewit is losing money on this project. How true that is I cannot say.
The first half of the concrete guideway columns were mostly drilled into dry, above the water table, shafts where the bedrock was less than or around 100' in depth. Shafts can be drilled in a day or two and use just a drill rig. The second half of the of the concrete guideway columns are almost all wet shafts, drilled below the water table, with depths of 200' plus. Shafts will take a week plus to drill and requires specialized drilling equipment to deal with the wet conditions in the shafts. This does not include much larger and heavier cranes that are required and more Union Operators and Union Laborers to operate the additional equipment. Yeah, it could take a minimum of 2 or 3 times longer just to build the second half. That translates into a minimum of 2-3 times higher costs over the first half. Probably more like 4-5 times IMHO. Whether the more urban area has any affect on the cost, I can't say.
To me, it doesn't look good. We were sold a bill of goods and we are going to pay dearly. And I wouldn't be surprised if the 0.50% GET increase finds its way to the outer islands eventually.
Kiewit losing money - I heard the same story. I didn't originally think so, but I do now.
With regards to the initial shafts being dry, not true. A serious amount of the shafts are wet and most likely deeper than 100'. Also the methodology selected by HART was to oscillate the temp/permanent casing in. This adds a major amount of time and cost into both ends of the shaft construction. You're more like a week a shaft than 2 days and certainly not 1 day. I do agree that the next phase will be more difficult and costly as you get into Honolulu proper.
I don't see the 1/2% tax making it off island, Rail is a Honolulu problem and don't see how the other counties would give in or be forced to also charge the tax. My great fear is the tax goes away and now the people have to make the difference up in property value taxes.
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years ago a friend of mine used to work at foremost dairies right along the proposed rail line. they were building another building and loading dock which he could see out of his office. he watched as they would piledrive concrete pylons and they would suddenly disappear into the ground one after the other. i've heard there are voids and underground water tables throughout the area. how much of this is true and what it would affect, i don't know.
It's a problem with concrete overages with the drilled shaft methodology. This is common in Hawaii. It is then a design issue to see if the holes are permanently or temporarily cased holes. In any case the Owner pays for unforeseen conditions, so yeah it's ultimately a pass through cost to the taxpayers.
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Not sure about the rest of the route, but the stretch along Kam Hwy in Waimalu (Cutter Ford) is notoriously problematic due to the water table being up high. In my previous job, we looked at a lot of utility projects in the area and the costs for trenching and such were super high due to the high water table and generally "junk" subgrade. That company had a lot of rail work lined up, but I had left the company before most of it got beyond planning and initial investigation.
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What about having bike racks on the trains!
or people racks?!
on another note, India loves their trains!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/81/b8/3981b816985482f411dbeb015d7b0454.jpg)
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The rail line is fixed. People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus. They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination. Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.
Not true, when I lived in Japan I had to take two trains. If it is designed well and runs smoothly it works. People just have to get over their laziness.
Why are you arguing with an SME? Besides this isn't Japan. We have ONE incomplete above ground train set that is still being assembled. Before opening the package it stated assembly by 17 years or older. Legislators couldn't read but bought it anyways. Now we are stuck. It's just like those mega Transformer toys that are sold in WalMart. Damn thing so complicated and expensive. Kids turn to parents with ??? and parents return the ???.
I read that eating too much fish is bad for your health due to the mercury content....lay off the fish - eyeeatingfish
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With regards to the initial shafts being dry, not true.
I worked on the first 130 or 140 shafts from Kroc Center to out along Farrington to Fort Weaver Road. All of them are dry and most are well under 100' with a handful just over 100'. We didn't see a wet shaft until we got out into Waipahu on the Diamond Head side of Fort Weaver Road. Most of the shafts from there on out are wet shafts.
A serious amount of the shafts are wet and most likely deeper than 100'. Also the methodology selected by HART was to oscillate the temp/permanent casing in. This adds a major amount of time and cost into both ends of the shaft construction. You're more like a week a shaft than 2 days and certainly not 1 day. I do agree that the next phase will be more difficult and costly as you get into Honolulu proper.
All of the wet shafts are deeper than 100'. Your time frame for the wet shafts being a week is correct. On the first 130-140 shafts Kiewit was pouring concrete in a shaft a day. Unless we hit bedrock sooner than expected. In which case it took 2 days to drill and place concrete. I was there. Everyday. Also, we had two drill crews working. So some days we would place concrete in 2 shafts a day. Again, I was there.
I don't see the 1/2% tax making it off island, Rail is a Honolulu problem and don't see how the other counties would give in or be forced to also charge the tax. My great fear is the tax goes away and now the people have to make the difference up in property value taxes.
I have never seen in my lifetime a temporary tax that did not become permanent at some point. So I believe the half percent tax hike is a permanent tax rate for us. Not saying it can't happen but I doubt it will ever go away. I agree I am afraid our property taxes will probably go up because of this. If they don't increase property taxes to the outer islands will we see an exodus to the outer islands? Just a thought.
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I worked on the first 130 or 140 shafts from Kroc Center to out along Farrington to Fort Weaver Road. All of them are dry and most are well under 100' with a handful just over 100'. We didn't see a wet shaft until we got out into Waipahu on the Diamond Head side of Fort Weaver Road. Most of the shafts from there on out are wet shafts.
All of the wet shafts are deeper than 100'. Your time frame for the wet shafts being a week is correct. On the first 130-140 shafts Kiewit was pouring concrete in a shaft a day. Unless we hit bedrock sooner than expected. In which case it took 2 days to drill and place concrete. I was there. Everyday. Also, we had two drill crews working. So some days we would place concrete in 2 shafts a day. Again, I was there.
I have never seen in my lifetime a temporary tax that did not become permanent at some point. So I believe the half percent tax hike is a permanent tax rate for us. Not saying it can't happen but I doubt it will ever go away. I agree I am afraid our property taxes will probably go up because of this. If they don't increase property taxes to the outer islands will we see an exodus to the outer islands? Just a thought.
so.........basically you're saying we the taxpayers all getting the shaft but, some are dry and some are wet? i'll take mines lubed please! :thumbsup:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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so.........basically you're saying we the taxpayers all getting the shaft but, some are dry and some are wet? i'll take mines lubed please! :thumbsup:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Drillers use bentonite mixed with water which then turns to a gel. This gel is used to lube and keep the drill bit cool during hard drilling. Yeah, I know it's reaching a bit. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I worked on the first 130 or 140 shafts from Kroc Center to out along Farrington to Fort Weaver Road. All of them are dry and most are well under 100' with a handful just over 100'. We didn't see a wet shaft until we got out into Waipahu on the Diamond Head side of Fort Weaver Road. Most of the shafts from there on out are wet shafts.
All of the wet shafts are deeper than 100'. Your time frame for the wet shafts being a week is correct. On the first 130-140 shafts Kiewit was pouring concrete in a shaft a day. Unless we hit bedrock sooner than expected. In which case it took 2 days to drill and place concrete. I was there. Everyday. Also, we had two drill crews working. So some days we would place concrete in 2 shafts a day. Again, I was there.
I have never seen in my lifetime a temporary tax that did not become permanent at some point. So I believe the half percent tax hike is a permanent tax rate for us. Not saying it can't happen but I doubt it will ever go away. I agree I am afraid our property taxes will probably go up because of this. If they don't increase property taxes to the outer islands will we see an exodus to the outer islands? Just a thought.
I C about the earlier shafts, I didn't really look at them until they got into Waipahu.
Pouring two a day is good, but most likely you guys are completing, flocking, cleaning, testing, then pouring........pain in the butt, but what's spec'd.
I fear you are right about the tax being permanent, but I'd rather see that than my property tax go up. At least there's more people to share in the pain. Personally I think we should take the legislators', Mayors', Govs' pensions for all those that supported rail and apply that to the overruns.
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I C about the earlier shafts, I didn't really look at them until they got into Waipahu.
Pouring two a day is good, but most likely you guys are completing, flocking, cleaning, testing, then pouring........pain in the butt, but what's spec'd.
I fear you are right about the tax being permanent, but I'd rather see that than my property tax go up. At least there's more people to share in the pain. Personally I think we should take the legislators', Mayors', Govs' pensions for all those that supported rail and apply that to the overruns.
Yes, two a day is good but it didn't happen as often as it could have. I didn't want to add the inability of one of the superintendents to maintain that schedule. I don't want get into why. The preparation of the area and and pre drilling, grouting, etc also took many days that we didn't drill the shafts. And yes on top of all the items you mentioned above. I didn't want to get into too much detail. I didn't realize that you are familiar with the project.
So I have a question for you. If the half % GET tax hike is insufficient to pay the over runs and exhorbatant additional costs of this project within a reasonable time frame, then what is to stop them from keeping the GET hike AND raise our property taxes on top of that? And once that property tax hike is in place it will never go back down again. Yeah, I hate the rail.
I doubt the pensions would be enough to scratch at the overruns. However, I do believe that all the bribes and under the table cash they take might pay it off the first year. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Not true, when I lived in Japan I had to take two trains. If it is designed well and runs smoothly it works. People just have to get over their laziness.
Two completely different scenarios. The one you just mentioned is like catching a plane to catch a connecting flight. Totally within reason.
With Oahu why would anyone expect someone to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus to their destination? It won't happen and it's nothing about laziness it's about efficiency of time and cost.
Do you think most people will really have 3 legs in their commute? I suspect most would be served by 2 legs, one way. UH Manoa might be the exception though.
My commute in Japan involved at least a 5 minute walk between the subway I took and the train I took. I had a 10 minute walk to the subway to start and then probably a mile walk from my final train to the university. Sometimes I did catch a bus to catch a train as well. I understand your skepticism but I got used to it and it worked somehow.
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What about having bike racks on the trains!
or people racks?!
on another note, India loves their trains!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/81/b8/3981b816985482f411dbeb015d7b0454.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1gpFGJjg3Ys/Tc2xweVHVTI/AAAAAAAAAgU/uAxkkBau0EE/s400/ROFL-MAO.jpg)
Well, that image certainly fits my experience of Honolulu perfectly.
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Yes, two a day is good but it didn't happen as often as it could have. I didn't want to add the inability of one of the superintendents to maintain that schedule. I don't want get into why. The preparation of the area and and pre drilling, grouting, etc also took many days that we didn't drill the shafts. And yes on top of all the items you mentioned above. I didn't want to get into too much detail. I didn't realize that you are familiar with the project.
So I have a question for you. If the half % GET tax hike is insufficient to pay the over runs and exhorbatant additional costs of this project within a reasonable time frame, then what is to stop them from keeping the GET hike AND raise our property taxes on top of that? And once that property tax hike is in place it will never go back down again. Yeah, I hate the rail.
I doubt the pensions would be enough to scratch at the overruns. However, I do believe that all the bribes and under the table cash they take might pay it off the first year. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yeah keeping the 1/2% and jacking up the property tax.............worst case situation is going to happen.
Regarding pay it off, won't happen but I want those lying sacks of crap to pay for their bullcrap. The worst thing I come across is when people don't even try to come up with a good lie.
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Do you think most people will really have 3 legs in their commute? I suspect most would be served by 2 legs, one way. UH Manoa might be the exception though.
My commute in Japan involved at least a 5 minute walk between the subway I took and the train I took. I had a 10 minute walk to the subway to start and then probably a mile walk from my final train to the university. Sometimes I did catch a bus to catch a train as well. I understand your skepticism but I got used to it and it worked somehow.
You're kidding me right?
The facts of rail are this. The users of rail will live within about 1/2 mile of the stations. The users of rails will have their destination within about 1/2 of a mile from a rail station. Does this sound familiar.............maybe your exact scenario?............
I repeat one of the reasons for the buildup along Kakaako is because you need density for this type of rail to work and the density needs to be around the rail line or this doesn't work.
When you look at rapid transit options there is a reason why they work in New York, or in Japan and it's because of how their cities & transportation models are set up. For what the politicians are trying to sell us on Oahu it does not work as it is and does not work for you unless you work in town or Ala Moana AND you live in close proximity to the rail line.
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Couple of interesting stories in Civil Beat:
http://www.civilbeat.com/2016/04/grabauskas-honolulu-rail-audit-a-mess/ (http://www.civilbeat.com/2016/04/grabauskas-honolulu-rail-audit-a-mess/)
http://www.civilbeat.com/2016/04/what-to-do-with-the-tax-sinkhole-that-is-honolulu-rail/ (http://www.civilbeat.com/2016/04/what-to-do-with-the-tax-sinkhole-that-is-honolulu-rail/)
:grrr:
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Why do you assume it is laziness?
As with everyone, our opinions are based upon personal experience.
Do you have children?
No need to answer, I only raise this question because a parent of three children, managing drop-offs/pick-ups and extracurricular activities may have quite a different opinion and perspective from that of a single, male college student, or even from that of a married couple who have no children.
Yes, 2 small ones, and I have traveled with them multiple times on the train. I am not going to claim the train is as convenient as a car but it is manageable.
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You're kidding me right?
The facts of rail are this. The users of rail will live within about 1/2 mile of the stations. The users of rails will have their destination within about 1/2 of a mile from a rail station. Does this sound familiar.............maybe your exact scenario?............
I repeat one of the reasons for the buildup along Kakaako is because you need density for this type of rail to work and the density needs to be around the rail line or this doesn't work.
When you look at rapid transit options there is a reason why they work in New York, or in Japan and it's because of how their cities & transportation models are set up. For what the politicians are trying to sell us on Oahu it does not work as it is and does not work for you unless you work in town or Ala Moana AND you live in close proximity to the rail line.
I would expand it a little more than 1/2 mile, but that's just my experience.Again, if there is a convenient bus line that connects to a rail station is greatly expands the ridership.
Yes, rapid transit benefits from population density but let me ask you this, is it better to build it ahead of time when it is easier or build it later when we are more dense and it would be harder to build?
And in the meantime there really aren't a lot of realistic proposals to deal with our traffic problems as it is.
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You're kidding me right?
The facts of rail are this. The users of rail will live within about 1/2 mile of the stations. The users of rails will have their destination within about 1/2 of a mile from a rail station. Does this sound familiar.............maybe your exact scenario?............
I repeat one of the reasons for the buildup along Kakaako is because you need density for this type of rail to work and the density needs to be around the rail line or this doesn't work.
When you look at rapid transit options there is a reason why they work in New York, or in Japan and it's because of how their cities & transportation models are set up. For what the politicians are trying to sell us on Oahu it does not work as it is and does not work for you unless you work in town or Ala Moana AND you live in close proximity to the rail line.
I agree. I was still living in Seattle when they were planning their rail system. They used places like Portland, San Fran, and Chicago as examples of where rail will work. To me, it was a good fit for Seattle as the layout of the main points of connection was close to linear, or at least followed the I-5 corridor. Same/similar with the other examples of where rail work. It connected large pockets of metropolitan areas with places like the airport and other key areas. When rail came up here, I thought that it "could" work if they planned it out properly. That said, Oahu isn't layed out like places. Can they redevelop the key areas to make it work? Probably, but that will take time. A LOT of time, and not to mention the cost.
Japan's transit situation is unique IMO. Their network of underground lines in the metro areas are amazing! They are able to have construction of rail stations below existing building in densely populated areas. I am not sure if those buildings were design with plans to accommodate transit stations in the future, but I don't think many of them were. To see them doing construction below a tall office building is something I don't see happening here. I'm a licensed structural engineer and to me that would be a nightmare!!!
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I agree. I was still living in Seattle when they were planning their rail system. They used places like Portland, San Fran, and Chicago as examples of where rail will work. To me, it was a good fit for Seattle as the layout of the main points of connection was close to linear, or at least followed the I-5 corridor. Same/similar with the other examples of where rail work. It connected large pockets of metropolitan areas with places like the airport and other key areas. When rail came up here, I thought that it "could" work if they planned it out properly. That said, Oahu isn't layed out like places. Can they redevelop the key areas to make it work? Probably, but that will take time. A LOT of time, and not to mention the cost.
Japan's transit situation is unique IMO. Their network of underground lines in the metro areas are amazing! They are able to have construction of rail stations below existing building in densely populated areas. I am not sure if those buildings were design with plans to accommodate transit stations in the future, but I don't think many of them were. To see them doing construction below a tall office building is something I don't see happening here. I'm a licensed structural engineer and to me that would be a nightmare!!!
Japan has rail lines going everywhere which makes exclusive use of the subway system viable.
Secondly, city planning in Japan like most of Asia has mixed commercial and residential areas where everything you will ever need is within walking distance. If you need lunch, you just go down the elevator and walk to the nearest 7/11 or hole-in-the-wall restaurant. If you need a "load" for your phone, just go down to the phone repair store at the 1st floor of your building.
In the US, city planning intentionally separates commercial areas from residential / suburban areas to encourage the purchase of cars (helps the industry) and make us dependent on the use of fuel (easy to tax and generate revenue for the government). I cannot imagine going to a Costco or even a Safeway and bringing all those items through the bus-rail-bus system.
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Japan has rail lines going everywhere which makes exclusive use of the subway system viable.
Secondly, city planning in Japan like most of Asia has mixed commercial and residential areas where everything you will ever need is within walking distance. If you need lunch, you just go down the elevator and walk to the nearest 7/11 or hole-in-the-wall restaurant. If you need a "load" for your phone, just go down to the phone repair store at the 1st floor of your building.
In the US, city planning intentionally separates commercial areas from residential / suburban areas to encourage the purchase of cars (helps the industry) and make us dependent on the use of fuel (easy to tax and generate revenue for the government). I cannot imagine going to a Costco or even a Safeway and bringing all those items through the bus-rail-bus system.
Yeah, I agree. I was just commenting on how the system/superstructure of the rail/train/subway system itself evolves in such heavily populated areas.
I dated a girl from Japan for a while and it amazed me that many people take close to 2 hours for commute each way! Car ownership was very low where she lived (near Shibuya). Yes, pretty much everything you needed was either available at the train station or very near by. That way, on your way home, you stop and get this, or that. We sort of had to plan everything out. Buy this one day, buy that another day. Limitation was what we (usually just me) could carry home.
Yes. Planning of communities in US is very much that way. However, there are very much more involved to encourage alternate modes of transportation. To make roads more bike friendly, allow better access to public transportation, etc. However, all that is dependent on change in lifestyle habits. When I lived in Seattle, we were offered free bus passes, which usually cost close to $150 per month. I ended up taking that and I thought I would be hampered by having to work around the bus schedule, but it wasn't too bad once you got into the flow of things. However, like mentioned above, it would be different if I had kids. Nowadays, I need my car to go from meeting here to meeting there. Back then, I didn't need my car much for work.
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The thing that bums me out is it's the tail wagging the dog.
They're using this rail monster as their excuse to super overdevelop all areas along the line.
(And make some developers rich)
Hoopili.
The Aiea drive in high rises where they approved a height limit variance from 60 ft. To 350 ft.
Kakaako where height limits were obliterated and nothing is affordable.
And it barely has any seats !
Cities I've been to with successful rails have multiple lines or systems. ( DC, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Portland, Chicago )
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I would expand it a little more than 1/2 mile, but that's just my experience.Again, if there is a convenient bus line that connects to a rail station is greatly expands the ridership.
Yes, rapid transit benefits from population density but let me ask you this, is it better to build it ahead of time when it is easier or build it later when we are more dense and it would be harder to build?
And in the meantime there really aren't a lot of realistic proposals to deal with our traffic problems as it is.
By its very definition you need density for Rapid Transit to work. Rapid Transit is basically a mass transit system (think The Bus), but with a dedicated roadway/railway/lanes/etc. Because the route fixed it is not flexible.
By comparison a mass transit system like The Bus is extremely flexible and for that reason is better able in our situation to adapt to what the ridership requirements are.
Regarding when things should be built...........no it's not good to build now as we are paying the bulk of the costs for this type of system. Now this is just the construction costs, when you get into the actual costs to operate and maintain the system it's a horrendous idea. The very same thing could have been done but using The Bus. No expensive railway maintenance or support powerstations. No needing special rail cars. No needing dedicated & specialized labor to fix the system.
Also if the width of the structure is widened a bit you could allow for toll usage. The guys battling to get into town in the morning and getting home at night...........a lot of them would pay for that use. Think too that the support power stations would not have to be built, run and maintained/repaired. That dedicated specialized railcar maintenance yards would not be required.
I urge you to truly look at there being alternatives to what was shoved down our throats and realize the County has made mistake after mistake after mistake.
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Chicago has an excellent transit system that is affordable. The same cannot be said about the Honolulu rail project. The route keeps getting shorter while costs keep going up. There is one thing that I am hearing very little about. The bus only pass that so many people now rely on will vanish and be replaced by a combined rail/bus pass. It will make no difference if you use the rail or not. Riders will just have to cough up and pay more. It is accepted that the combined pass will cost a lot more than the bus only pass.
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I would expand it a little more than 1/2 mile, but that's just my experience.Again, if there is a convenient bus line that connects to a rail station is greatly expands the ridership.
Yes, rapid transit benefits from population density but let me ask you this, is it better to build it ahead of time when it is easier or build it later when we are more dense and it would be harder to build?
And in the meantime there really aren't a lot of realistic proposals to deal with our traffic problems as it is.
I disagree. Expansion of BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) lanes has been proposed and ignored. This is really nothing more than minor lane expansion, repainting, and signage changes. Very cheap to implement and able to be implemented across the entire island of Oahu if so desired.
The other item that would help is to offset on grade intersections (think slight underpass and slight overpass where both directions can move at the same time). This would pay massive dividends during rush hour traffic by enabling traffic to flow.
Both of these are very cheap solutions.
Now will this solve traffic? No it won't. Every conference that I've been to where this issue comes up is like this; (A) steal space make more lanes, (B) traffic bottle necks eventually become worse because you have more lane miles still feeding the same choke point, (C) eventually pony up the money and increase the number of lanes. This is true up in Portland near the Washington border at in New York at the Tappan Zee Bridge.
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A lot of rail supporters say they would use the rail, but when asked if they use The Bus - they say no. So their propensity to use the rail is just as null.
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I disagree. Expansion of BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) lanes has been proposed and ignored. This is really nothing more than minor lane expansion, repainting, and signage changes. Very cheap to implement and able to be implemented across the entire island of Oahu if so desired.
The other item that would help is to offset on grade intersections (think slight underpass and slight overpass where both directions can move at the same time). This would pay massive dividends during rush hour traffic by enabling traffic to flow.
Both of these are very cheap solutions.
Now will this solve traffic? No it won't. Every conference that I've been to where this issue comes up is like this; (A) steal space make more lanes, (B) traffic bottle necks eventually become worse because you have more lane miles still feeding the same choke point, (C) eventually pony up the money and increase the number of lanes. This is true up in Portland near the Washington border at in New York at the Tappan Zee Bridge.
By its very definition you need density for Rapid Transit to work. Rapid Transit is basically a mass transit system (think The Bus), but with a dedicated roadway/railway/lanes/etc. Because the route fixed it is not flexible.
By comparison a mass transit system like The Bus is extremely flexible and for that reason is better able in our situation to adapt to what the ridership requirements are.
Regarding when things should be built...........no it's not good to build now as we are paying the bulk of the costs for this type of system. Now this is just the construction costs, when you get into the actual costs to operate and maintain the system it's a horrendous idea. The very same thing could have been done but using The Bus. No expensive railway maintenance or support powerstations. No needing special rail cars. No needing dedicated & specialized labor to fix the system.
Also if the width of the structure is widened a bit you could allow for toll usage. The guys battling to get into town in the morning and getting home at night...........a lot of them would pay for that use. Think too that the support power stations would not have to be built, run and maintained/repaired. That dedicated specialized railcar maintenance yards would not be required.
I urge you to truly look at there being alternatives to what was shoved down our throats and realize the County has made mistake after mistake after mistake.
Do you think the bus system expansion would make a big dent? If someone isn't going to go from bus to train to bus then they aren't going to go from bus to bus to bus either. The bus also has limitations, such as driver error and they still get screwed by traffic. Busses don't offer the speed that a rail system can, mainly because of traffic. Now I am not knocking the bus system, but I think its limitations mean it wont be able to fully address future traffic issues. Both have their advantages and disadvantages and I don't think one could ever completely replace the other.
Ultimately, whether we build a rail or even triple the capability of the bus system, the public mindset has to change in order for them to become effective. Forcing a mindset change would be difficult but I think the ever increasing population means it will happen sooner or later if for no other reason than traffic is so bad or the cost of having a car is so expensive.
My issue when it comes to the rail is all the fishiness behind the curtains, not the actual idea of a train system itself. The ever expanding budget is inexcusable. Every time bones are found it seems to add millions to the cost of construction alone! Gotta wonder if the contracts were written poorly.
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Rail was nothing but a huge money grab for a lot of people. It's initial planning and long term viability was a sham. It was merely to get the project going to make the people involved a lot of money and to ram down a poor design on the people of Oahu to where the project got to the point of no return.
The planning was less than poor with no plan on how to maintain, supply power, supply workforce, supply security personnel. HPD answer when rail committee said that the HPD would staff the trains, was that no one discussed anything with the HPD especially in regards to manpower and funding to make such a thing happen. Again it was just to force the project before Fed monies disappeared and before the people of Hawaii could get wise to the financial fiasco that is rail.
People in the construction field who make contributions got themselves richer along with key politicians. None of this was a secret or an accidental oversight by Rail. They understood all of this but kept it all hidden from the public on purpose. People should go to jail over stuff like this. Sad but you don't do major Fed, State or City construction projects without paying the correct people. That is just how things work here, not unlike many places. Don't be naive and think it is about helping the people of Oahu.
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Rail was nothing but a huge money grab for a lot of people. It's initial planning and long term viability was a sham. It was merely to get the project going to make the people involved a lot of money and to ram down a poor design on the people of Oahu to where the project got to the point of no return.
The planning was less than poor with no plan on how to maintain, supply power, supply workforce, supply security personnel. HPD answer when rail committee said that the HPD would staff the trains, was that no one discussed anything with the HPD especially in regards to manpower and funding to make such a thing happen. Again it was just to force the project before Fed monies disappeared and before the people of Hawaii could get wise to the financial fiasco that is rail.
People in the construction field who make contributions got themselves richer along with key politicians. None of this was a secret or an accidental oversight by Rail. They understood all of this but kept it all hidden from the public on purpose. People should go to jail over stuff like this. Sad but you don't do major Fed, State or City construction projects without paying the correct people. That is just how things work here, not unlike many places. Don't be naive and think it is about helping the people of Oahu.
That's what I was thinking. I'd like to be naive that with all the money these unions, politicians and others who TOOK from us to pay themselves - there would be some inkling of public good. But as the days pass one can only see that this was just straight up theft to the Nth degree. It's a shame that there are people starving, struggling to get by while these people continue to justify extending their tax. No different from gangs who take money from local businesses.
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Cayetano must be laughing and saying to himself "I told you so" every time he reads a story about this stupid project. He wanted to implement a greatly expanded bus system instead and that would have already been in operation by now.
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Im lazy.
Id rather get in my nice air conditioned car by myself in my own private space than go to a train station not within a block of my residence. Who wants to walk, and sit in a white box with other people? Besides I spent a lot on my car with rims that I should be able to enjoy it. I want other people to take the rail so I can cruise in my car. Like Ludacris said, "move,get out my way..."
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Like Ludacris said, "move,get out my way..."
WTF???
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WTF???
Clean version.
http://youtu.be/tw429JGL5zo
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Do you think the bus system expansion would make a big dent? If someone isn't going to go from bus to train to bus then they aren't going to go from bus to bus to bus either. The bus also has limitations, such as driver error and they still get screwed by traffic. Busses don't offer the speed that a rail system can, mainly because of traffic. Now I am not knocking the bus system, but I think its limitations mean it wont be able to fully address future traffic issues. Both have their advantages and disadvantages and I don't think one could ever completely replace the other.
Ultimately, whether we build a rail or even triple the capability of the bus system, the public mindset has to change in order for them to become effective. Forcing a mindset change would be difficult but I think the ever increasing population means it will happen sooner or later if for no other reason than traffic is so bad or the cost of having a car is so expensive.
My issue when it comes to the rail is all the fishiness behind the curtains, not the actual idea of a train system itself. The ever expanding budget is inexcusable. Every time bones are found it seems to add millions to the cost of construction alone! Gotta wonder if the contracts were written poorly.
There doesn't need to be a Bus system expansion. The Bus as-is is already a very good mass transit system.
What is need are improvements to the on grade streets so certain key intersections can become off grade (one up higher & one down lower leading to reduced wait times and gridlock). This in and of itself will help to reduce gridlock (think the Piikoi/Beretania area & the Vineyard on-ramp..........this would pay massively and would be extremely cost effective).
Again you missed my point about the BRT system. This changes The Bus from a mass transit to a rapid transit system. This means that they have their own dedicated lanes. This would help to reduce times for ridership. As far as their being driver error...........come on man that's grasping at straws. You don't think Rail will also have issues too (and those are completely new issues that we have no experience with since it's a brand new system)?
Regarding changing how people think. No we don't people already use Rail. Again it's not about changing that perspective it's about making it convenient enough so it makes sense. Again this means density around the Rail line. This is how and why Rail works.
As far as finding bones adding cost. It happens but the impact can be reduced by having good up front surveys of the areas under construction and having pre-determined ways to address issues as they come up. I can guarantee you this..........it's not the artifacts and iwi that are adding the bulk of the cost to the project. It's poor planning, Government waste, stupid reporting requirements, overall lack of accountability..............in other words it's a typical Government project.
I realize that you feel strongly about your opinions, but you should realize my background is in Civil Engineering, so I studies this in college. I am in construction so I do this on a daily basis. As a kid I used The Bus quite a bit to get back home from school in town. I used to support Rail when it first came out but after I had a chance to look at the supporting (or lack thereof) documents I changed my mind. Should say something to you that someone in my position who would benefit directly financially from this project does not support it............................
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There doesn't need to be a Bus system expansion. The Bus as-is is already a very good mass transit system.
What is need are improvements to the on grade streets so certain key intersections can become off grade (one up higher & one down lower leading to reduced wait times and gridlock). This in and of itself will help to reduce gridlock (think the Piikoi/Beretania area & the Vineyard on-ramp..........this would pay massively and would be extremely cost effective).
Again you missed my point about the BRT system. This changes The Bus from a mass transit to a rapid transit system. This means that they have their own dedicated lanes. This would help to reduce times for ridership. As far as their being driver error...........come on man that's grasping at straws. You don't think Rail will also have issues too (and those are completely new issues that we have no experience with since it's a brand new system)?
Regarding changing how people think. No we don't people already use Rail. Again it's not about changing that perspective it's about making it convenient enough so it makes sense. Again this means density around the Rail line. This is how and why Rail works.
As far as finding bones adding cost. It happens but the impact can be reduced by having good up front surveys of the areas under construction and having pre-determined ways to address issues as they come up. I can guarantee you this..........it's not the artifacts and iwi that are adding the bulk of the cost to the project. It's poor planning, Government waste, stupid reporting requirements, overall lack of accountability..............in other words it's a typical Government project.
I realize that you feel strongly about your opinions, but you should realize my background is in Civil Engineering, so I studies this in college. I am in construction so I do this on a daily basis. As a kid I used The Bus quite a bit to get back home from school in town. I used to support Rail when it first came out but after I had a chance to look at the supporting (or lack thereof) documents I changed my mind. Should say something to you that someone in my position who would benefit directly financially from this project does not support it............................
G,
Coming from someone who also has financially benefitted from the rail and has not supported it from the beginning, I have to say you have said everything that have been saying all along but a lot more eloquently than I have. There are two things that I would like to add based on my experience in building the LA Rail system.
First thing is inadequate parking. LA Rail came up with the Park and Ride concept but then didn't provide the parking needed for this to work. What they did in essence is put more people back in their cars. Imagine driving to the Park and Ride lot and cruising the lot for 5 or 10 minutes and having to go ahead and get onto the freeway and fight traffic because you couldn't find a place to park your car. They also didn't count on people parking a second vehicle at the destination station because no bus ran near their destination. What they did in reaction to that was to close the lots at night and tow any car left in the lots. Those same people went back to driving to work everyday. Our rail stations have inadequate parking space for the predicted ridership. All this is going to do is alienate the ridership that would consider riding the rail but would not be convenient enough for them to make that leap.
The second item we did in SoCal that I feel was cost effective and worth every penny was massive widening and double decking projects. We have similar circumstances here in Hawaii as LA has. Only difference is that LA identified the areas that the rail would benefit the most. And they built rail lines to service these areas. Unfortunately, no one here planned (nor seemed to care) that the areas that rail would benefit most were worthy of having rail service those areas. And after all that money was spent building the LA Rail system they realized that the rail did not reduce congestion as predicted. And here it is 20 years later and they just finished massive widening projects in LA and OC because of the lack of ridership.
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There doesn't need to be a Bus system expansion. The Bus as-is is already a very good mass transit system.
What is need are improvements to the on grade streets so certain key intersections can become off grade (one up higher & one down lower leading to reduced wait times and gridlock). This in and of itself will help to reduce gridlock (think the Piikoi/Beretania area & the Vineyard on-ramp..........this would pay massively and would be extremely cost effective).
Again you missed my point about the BRT system. This changes The Bus from a mass transit to a rapid transit system. This means that they have their own dedicated lanes. This would help to reduce times for ridership. As far as their being driver error...........come on man that's grasping at straws. You don't think Rail will also have issues too (and those are completely new issues that we have no experience with since it's a brand new system)?
Regarding changing how people think. No we don't people already use Rail. Again it's not about changing that perspective it's about making it convenient enough so it makes sense. Again this means density around the Rail line. This is how and why Rail works.
As far as finding bones adding cost. It happens but the impact can be reduced by having good up front surveys of the areas under construction and having pre-determined ways to address issues as they come up. I can guarantee you this..........it's not the artifacts and iwi that are adding the bulk of the cost to the project. It's poor planning, Government waste, stupid reporting requirements, overall lack of accountability..............in other words it's a typical Government project.
I realize that you feel strongly about your opinions, but you should realize my background is in Civil Engineering, so I studies this in college. I am in construction so I do this on a daily basis. As a kid I used The Bus quite a bit to get back home from school in town. I used to support Rail when it first came out but after I had a chance to look at the supporting (or lack thereof) documents I changed my mind. Should say something to you that someone in my position who would benefit directly financially from this project does not support it............................
I respect your stance and educational background supporting such stance.
I support A rail system though I do not necessarily support all aspects of this rail system. Like I said, I do have my criticisms of this system. For example, did you know they budgeted millions of dollars just for art for the rail stations?
I don't think considering driver error is grasping at straws, at least not any more than worrying about the point of natural disasters and people not giving up their cars, which would still be an issue with the bus system you suggest.
Dedicated bus lanes sound like a decent idea, certainly would deal with the traffic issues and be cheaper to build. Not sure if it is more efficient though, would have to run a lot of numbers for amount of fuel used and staff needed among other things to truly say which is more efficient.
Your point on density is not lost on me, I know this I an important factor. However the question I have about that is once the density reaches the amount that is ideal for a rail system, how much harder and more expensive would it be to build it? Good city planning takes into account what is expected many years into the future.
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Update
Front page headline estimates 5 more years and another billion dollars needed for rail. These aren't exactly "value added benefits", just funds needed to keep the original plan going.
Even the rail supporters should have saw this coming.
I sure did.
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Update
Front page headline estimates 5 more years and another billion dollars needed for rail. These aren't exactly "value added benefits", just funds needed to keep the original plan going.
Even the rail supporters should have saw this coming.
I sure did.
They also said it was estimated to cost $100M a year to operate. Did I hear that correctly? That is what I heard. Ridiculous.
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They also said it was estimated to cost $100M a year to operate. Did I hear that correctly? That is what I heard. Ridiculous.
"Ridiculous", but not "surprised", right? See: most state and federal taxpayer-funded agencies and programs.
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I know this is not applicable but I just was reading about the LA Transportation Authority. For bus and rail combined it costs LA $8.50/ride. They charge the rider an average of $1.20/ride. I don't know which costs more to operate per mile? They don't break it out from the sites that I saw.
I hope we don't have this much disparity in our mass transit system. Otherwise we will be getting huge tax increases and the C&C could go bankrupt.
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"Ridiculous", but not "surprised", right? See: most state and federal taxpayer-funded agencies and programs.
I don't believe it is going to ONLY cost $100M per year. I think it will be much more than that. But what do I know?
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average rail cost per mile/US- $251 million
cost per mile estimate@$10 billion total-$500 million
i hear the sound of rising taxes.
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Update
Front page headline estimates 5 more years and another billion dollars needed for rail. These aren't exactly "value added benefits", just funds needed to keep the original plan going.
Even the rail supporters should have saw this coming.
I sure did.
This is only the tip of the iceberg.
They also said it was estimated to cost $100M a year to operate. Did I hear that correctly? That is what I heard. Ridiculous.
This is also a BS errr I mean conservative estimate. This has nothing but a huge scam since inception and anyone who has believed rail to be anything other than a scam has been duped by those who control power and money in Hawaii.
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i hear the sound of rising taxes.
Keep those taxes in Honolulu. No way should other islands or even north Oahu pay for something they get no "benefit" from.
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Keep those taxes in Honolulu. No way should other islands or even north Oahu pay for something they get no "benefit" from.
Please forgive me, but I believe you've completely misunderstood the nature of taxation, as it actually exists. Just out of curiosity, what would you estimate is the percentage of taxes you pay that go to programs/agencies/people that you derive some direct (okay, even "indirect") benefit from?
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Please forgive me, but I believe you've completely misunderstood the nature of taxation, as it actually exists. Just out of curiosity, what would you estimate is the percentage of taxes you pay that go to programs/agencies/people that you derive some direct (okay, even "indirect") benefit from?
ANSWER: nada and zip percent.
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I was listening to the HNN news this morning in my truck on the way to work at 5:00am. They were discussing Hanabusa leaving and that they were considering changing the route the rail was going to go. Instead of going down Dillingham they were talking about it going down Nimitz instead.
The latest rail reports I have heard have all said that the latest estimates for the total cost of the rail will probably exceed $8B. But then Grace Lee said something quite different this morning. I can't remember her exact words so I have to paraphrase from memory (scary). :shake: But she said something to the effect that the rail is going to cost much more than $8B if they decide to build it all the way out to Ala Moana. Wait, are they saying that the previous weeks reports of the total cost of $8B for building the rail didn't have it going all the way out to Ala Moana? Does that $8B only buy enough track out to the stadium? If correct then if it costs $8B for half of the rail then the total cost will probably be in the range of $16B.
I am sure she probably misspoke this morning. Or more likely I probably misunderstood what she said. Did anyone else here listen to or watch HNN news at 5:00am this morning?
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I hope enough people ride the rail so I can enjoy a nice drive home before and after work...
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I hope enough people ride the rail so I can enjoy a nice drive home before and after work...
Maybe after the zombie apocalypse, but not after rail.
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According to the news this rail is now coasting the tax payers 10 BILLION. One of the issues is that the concrete is cracking and in some places the pillars are already sinking (settling as they call it) so they have put shims between the pillar and rail. I have on a couple of accounts spoke with some of the rail workers and what they say is "This rail is a joke" The estimated cost is going to exceed 10 BILLION and what does that mean for the people of Hawaii? Our taxes go up so we the Hawaiian people pay for the rail and our pay will remain the same. Not to mention the rebar they bought for the rail was bought way to early and is now rusting. Do you think they will clean the rust off the rebar before applying concrete to this metal? According to the workers....NO! The rust will not allow the rebar to adhere to the concrete causing no support. No support, and in a few years concrete starts to crack Hawaii is 10+Billion in the hole because of this rail, how fast do you think they are going to fix the crack? I tell you this I bet they raise our taxes again before they fix the cracks and the shifting of pillars. Rant over.
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According to the news this rail is now coasting the tax payers 10 BILLION. One of the issues is that the concrete is cracking and in some places the pillars are already sinking (settling as they call it) so they have put shims between the pillar and rail. I have on a couple of accounts spoke with some of the rail workers and what they say is "This rail is a joke" The estimated cost is going to exceed 10 BILLION and what does that mean for the people of Hawaii? Our taxes go up so we the Hawaiian people pay for the rail and our pay will remain the same. Not to mention the rebar they bought for the rail was bought way to early and is now rusting. Do you think they will clean the rust off the rebar before applying concrete to this metal? According to the workers....NO! The rust will not allow the rebar to adhere to the concrete causing no support. No support, and in a few years concrete starts to crack Hawaii is 10+Billion in the hole because of this rail, how fast do you think they are going to fix the crack? I tell you this I bet they raise our taxes again before they fix the cracks and the shifting of pillars. Rant over.
Similar to how misconceptions on guns go around, this is one for concrete construction.
http://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/materials/how-clean-must-rebar-be_o (http://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/materials/how-clean-must-rebar-be_o)
There's a link to the PDF of the full article. There are many more like it available. Basically, rust doesn't significantly impact bond strength of deformed rebar, which is what they are using in typical concrete construction and for the rail. That as long as the rebar isn't scaling to the point where it has lost section (I would have to look up the limits for where a bar is deemed not acceptable), it's just fine in terms of bonding to concrete.
However, cracking of the concrete is a significant concern to the durability of the concrete and longevity of concrete construction. The cracks allow infiltration by water and air. Rebar that is exposed to water and air will corrode and exposure to chlorides accelerates the process.
I haven't seen the detailing of the rail project, but the fact of the matter is concrete cracks. If you can invent concrete that doesn't crack, you'll be a multi-billionaire!
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This would be only a 2 year project in China, according to my friend's friend who is a Chinese railroad engineer while he was visiting Hawaii and being a railroad engineer wanted to see this 7 year project. Of course in China they would be working on it 24/7 and not wasting time in court acquiring property as they moved along. I personally think this fiasco will cost $12B before it is done, then after the initial novelty of riding rail, people will go back to driving cars and the only ridership rail will have are those already using the bus.
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This would be only a 2 year project in China, according to my friend's friend who is a Chinese railroad engineer while he was visiting Hawaii and being a railroad engineer wanted to see this 7 year project. Of course in China they would be working on it 24/7 and not wasting time in court acquiring property as they moved along. I personally think this fiasco will cost $12B before it is done, then after the initial novelty of riding rail, people will go back to driving cars and the only ridership rail will have are those already using the bus.
In my previous job, we worked with a couple of companies in the Philippines. I have kept in touch with one of them and they said the same thing. Rail would be done in a couple of years and probably at a fraction of the cost. That said, they don't have pesky stuff like OSHA and unions. They have other corruption though.
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Similar to how misconceptions on guns go around, this is one for concrete construction.
http://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/materials/how-clean-must-rebar-be_o (http://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/materials/how-clean-must-rebar-be_o)
There's a link to the PDF of the full article. There are many more like it available. Basically, rust doesn't significantly impact bond strength of deformed rebar, which is what they are using in typical concrete construction and for the rail. That as long as the rebar isn't scaling to the point where it has lost section (I would have to look up the limits for where a bar is deemed not acceptable), it's just fine in terms of bonding to concrete.
However, cracking of the concrete is a significant concern to the durability of the concrete and longevity of concrete construction. The cracks allow infiltration by water and air. Rebar that is exposed to water and air will corrode and exposure to chlorides accelerates the process.
I haven't seen the detailing of the rail project, but the fact of the matter is concrete cracks. If you can invent concrete that doesn't crack, you'll be a multi-billionaire!
Being that I have been a concrete inspector for 35 years I can validate your basic statements regarding rust, rebar and concrete. As an inspector I would look for actual scaling and then reject the rebar for it. And on the rail project I did. In fact, Kiewit water blasted the reinforcing removing all scaling and left a minimal amount of rust which does help with the bond. Now I have not worked on the rail for well over a year so I cannot say whether they have discontinued the practice of cleaning the rebar before burying it or if they are still cleaning it.
As far as settling is concerned it is considered normal until it becomes out of plumb or causes stress cracks. And the cracking probably is normal unless it is stress cracking. I am sure the structural engineers are keeping an eye on anything other than shrinkage cracking.
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Being that I have been a concrete inspector for 35 years I can validate your basic statements regarding rust, rebar and concrete. As an inspector I would look for actual scaling and then reject the rebar for it. And on the rail project I did. In fact, Kiewit water blasted the reinforcing removing all scaling and left a minimal amount of rust which does help with the bond. Now I have not worked on the rail for well over a year so I cannot say whether they have discontinued the practice of cleaning the rebar before burying it or if they are still cleaning it.
As far as settling is concerned it is considered normal until it becomes out of plumb or causes stress cracks. And the cracking probably is normal unless it is stress cracking. I am sure the structural engineers are keeping an eye on anything other than shrinkage cracking.
Being a structural engineer for 20 years, thanks for the validation. :P
I've gotten the rust on rebar question many times. I probably asked it a few times when I first started. I specialized in concrete construction, but mostly for buildings, when I lived in WA. Since moving back to HI, rust is definitely more of an issue, particularly with waterfront structures, which is what I deal with often nowadays. I have a lot of project in Guam. Think corrosion is bad here, Guam is way worse!
True about the settling. Many structures, like retaining walls and some caisson and pile structures need to be "activated" by some amount of movement. Of course, the designer needs to be aware and account for those effects.
If they are stress cracks, they are in real trouble. That said, the loading imposed by the erection and leveling of the box sections may be more than what many of those supports will encounter when in operation.
Shrinkage cracking is also so tough to control. Concrete temperature, humidity, wind speed, etc. We've had contractor's place concrete at 2 am with ice water to control the heat of hydration. I wasn't the lead engineer on that project, but I heard that the inspectors weren't happy. ;D
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Being a structural engineer for 20 years, thanks for the validation. :P
I've gotten the rust on rebar question many times. I probably asked it a few times when I first started. I specialized in concrete construction, but mostly for buildings, when I lived in WA. Since moving back to HI, rust is definitely more of an issue, particularly with waterfront structures, which is what I deal with often nowadays. I have a lot of project in Guam. Think corrosion is bad here, Guam is way worse!
True about the settling. Many structures, like retaining walls and some caisson and pile structures need to be "activated" by some amount of movement. Of course, the designer needs to be aware and account for those effects.
If they are stress cracks, they are in real trouble. That said, the loading imposed by the erection and leveling of the box sections may be more than what many of those supports will encounter when in operation.
Shrinkage cracking is also so tough to control. Concrete temperature, humidity, wind speed, etc. We've had contractor's place concrete at 2 am with ice water to control the heat of hydration. I wasn't the lead engineer on that project, but I heard that the inspectors weren't happy. ;D
Inspectors are never "happy" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Inspectors are never "happy" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Donuts or manapua usually help. :thumbsup:
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Donuts or manapua usually help. :thumbsup:
Has to malasadas or nothing passes!!! :shake: :shake: :shake:
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rail hasn't been completed and there is already signs of graffiti
I anticipated graffiti would be an issue, what is better than thousands of square feet of fresh canvas for Hawaii's graffiti artists and taggers?
It's a concrete jungle out there, and young people are always eager to get their name out....
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rail hasn't been completed and there is already signs of graffiti
I anticipated graffiti would be an issue, what is better than thousands of square feet of fresh canvas for Hawaii's graffiti artists and taggers?
It's a concrete jungle out there, and young people are always eager to get their name out....
Giant, elaborate graffiti discovered on Honolulu rail car
WAIPAHU, OAHU (HawaiiNewsNow) -
One of Honolulu's pricey new rail cars was covered with elaborate vandalism overnight, and Honolulu Police are trying to figure out who is responsible.
A giant mural stretches across the full length of one of the four cars that arrived on the island just last month. The intricate graffiti reaches all the way up to the car's roof and over its windows.
While some may find it pretty, it's still a criminal act.
"People should be outraged. These are very expensive trains that we bought. Probably about $2 million a car," said Honolulu Authority for Rapid Transportation Spokesman Bill Brennan.
The cars sit in the rail Operations Center next to Leeward Community College. The building is locked at 4 p.m. and reopened at 6 a.m.
(http://i.imgur.com/50uhY61.jpg)
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/32304840/giant-elaborate-graffiti-discovered-on-honolulu-rail-car
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This would be only a 2 year project in China, according to my friend's friend who is a Chinese railroad engineer while he was visiting Hawaii and being a railroad engineer wanted to see this 7 year project. Of course in China they would be working on it 24/7 and not wasting time in court acquiring property as they moved along. I personally think this fiasco will cost $12B before it is done, then after the initial novelty of riding rail, people will go back to driving cars and the only ridership rail will have are those already using the bus.
The newest estimates I heard this week ranged from 7 billion to 10 billion depending on which agency was asked.
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It must have taken several.hours to graffiti that train.
@eef,
Just before the rail project started the estimate was under $6b. Good rule of thumb for taxpayer funded projects is add 50% to what they originally say it will cost, but in the case of rail add 100%. I honestly would be shocked if they completed this thing for under $10b.
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Since the last estimate of the cost overruns by the FTA is exactly where the actual costs stand today, and the latest FTA estimate is 10+ billion if the incompetence and corruption is allowed to continue, I'm going to revise my original 2006 estimate from 10 billion up to 15 billion by the time this fiasco reaches critical mass, or completion, however you want to look at it.
Oh yeah, plus whatever it's going to cost us to subsidize actually running and maintaining this goatfuck every year, which they haven't bothered to figure out yet. I'm going with an initial estimate of $250,000,000.
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After talking someone who studied city planning I came to understand some of the complexity in pricing. It isn't all just waste and corruption, there is a sizeable element of uncertainty.
When they plan a project that might be finished 10 years later there are a lot of variables. For example, what are materials, labor, and fuel going to cost in 5 years? Then there are less predictable things that could delay and therefore add cost like the protestors, the discovery of bones, etc.
It may be that much of the cost overrun comes from poor initial planning and estimates.
The question now is where do we go from here? We could save a few bucks here and there but ultimately we know it is going to cost us a lot more than originally expected. Do we scrap the plan and leave a bunch of useless pillars dotting the landscape or do we suck it up and keep building?
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Make it into a bike path !
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After talking someone who studied city planning I came to understand some of the complexity in pricing. It isn't all just waste and corruption, there is a sizeable element of uncertainty.
When they plan a project that might be finished 10 years later there are a lot of variables. For example, what are materials, labor, and fuel going to cost in 5 years? Then there are less predictable things that could delay and therefore add cost like the protestors, the discovery of bones, etc.
It may be that much of the cost overrun comes from poor initial planning and estimates.
The question now is where do we go from here? We could save a few bucks here and there but ultimately we know it is going to cost us a lot more than originally expected. Do we scrap the plan and leave a bunch of useless pillars dotting the landscape or do we suck it up and keep building?
Yeah, that's what they get PAID to do, they screwed it up. When they don't bother to take into account water, sewer and utility lines in a portion of the construction, even though the information is readily available, that isn't "complexity". It's gross incompetence. In the private sector, if you display such incompetence, you get fired. At this point the estimated cost to complete this abortion has literally quadrupled from the original 3 billion. { I think I'll go with the FTA estimate, since they've been accurate so far } I would say that qualifies as "poor planning and initial estimates" at the very least.
I say yes, we scrap it and leave the pillars up as a monument to political ignorance, corruption and incompetence. Then every time some moronic politician gets a bright idea to spend money we don't have we walk them out there and rub their nose in the dirt surrounding the pillars like a disobedient dog that has pee'd on the carpet.
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Yeah, that's what they get PAID to do, they screwed it up. When they don't bother to take into account water, sewer and utility lines in a portion of the construction, even though the information is readily available, that isn't "complexity". It's gross incompetence. In the private sector, if you display such incompetence, you get fired. At this point the estimated cost to complete this abortion has literally quadrupled from the original 3 billion. { I think I'll go with the FTA estimate, since they've been accurate so far } I would say that qualifies as "poor planning and initial estimates" at the very least.
I say yes, we scrap it and leave the pillars up as a monument to political ignorance, corruption and incompetence. Then every time some moronic politician gets a bright idea to spend money we don't have we walk them out there and rub their nose in the dirt surrounding the pillars like a disobedient dog that has pee'd on the carpet.
I guess I am at the point where I figure that so much of it is built already that I say just spend the extra money and finished. But no matter which way it goes we are getting the short end of the stick.
The reason I pointed out the cost estimation issues is that it is not necessarily corruption or poor management. Now had the estimators accurately predicted a $6 billion or $8 billion price tag they still might have gone through with it and the end cost would remain the same. Only difference is that we would know the true cost up front instead of at the end. So incompetence maybe, but would it have made a different if they gave an accurate estimate?
I have met people at the board of water who have told me that maps of water supply and sewer lines aren't always accurate though no fault of their own but through the fault of whoever put in the system decades ago. So a researcher may have done due diligence in researching for utility systems and come up with fault estimates through no fault of their own. But as I said, utilities are more easily to account for than other hiccups. Again, i am just speculating here. There are so many variables at play here that it is difficult to point the finger at any single cause for the overrun. There are a lot of variables, some easier to control than others.
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I guess I am at the point where I figure that so much of it is built already that I say just spend the extra money and finished. But no matter which way it goes we are getting the short end of the stick.
The reason I pointed out the cost estimation issues is that it is not necessarily corruption or poor management. Now had the estimators accurately predicted a $6 billion or $8 billion price tag they still might have gone through with it and the end cost would remain the same. Only difference is that we would know the true cost up front instead of at the end. So incompetence maybe, but would it have made a different if they gave an accurate estimate?
I have met people at the board of water who have told me that maps of water supply and sewer lines aren't always accurate though no fault of their own but through the fault of whoever put in the system decades ago. So a researcher may have done due diligence in researching for utility systems and come up with fault estimates through no fault of their own. But as I said, utilities are more easily to account for than other hiccups. Again, i am just speculating here. There are so many variables at play here that it is difficult to point the finger at any single cause for the overrun. There are a lot of variables, some easier to control than others.
That's exactly the thinking they were hoping for from the uneducated masses. You aren't thinking in a logical manner.
The concept of "sunk costs" is difficult for some people to fathom, so politicians love to play on that. Instead of asking for $15B, they ask for $8B to start and complete a project. Sounds great when they show the cost over time, the break point that it pays for itself, and all that other "estimates based on a bad estimate" crap.
Then, when it's obvious the project is about to fail without more money (not a shock for those with eyes open), the pitch is "Do you really want to waste $8B we already spent? Let's just add more money and get it finished!"
They never go back and revise those payback projections or cost over time, because the new estimates blow that analysis out of the water completely, and they can't justify the cost using the new numbers.
Sunk costs are gone. They are spent. You don't throw good money after bad, as they say. Now you have to start over and ask, "What is the additional money going to buy us? What is the cost/benefit of adding more money? What's the additional cost if we just stop? Can we use that additional money better for other projects instead of creating an overpriced, underused, too expensive to operate train that doesn't go to the places it ought to?"
Don't ever fall for the "we don't want to waste the money already spent on a bad idea" appeal. It's for suckers!
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That's exactly the thinking they were hoping for from the uneducated masses. You aren't thinking in a logical manner.
The concept of "sunk costs" is difficult for some people to fathom, so politicians love to play on that. Instead of asking for $15B, they ask for $8B to start and complete a project. Sounds great when they show the cost over time, the break point that it pays for itself, and all that other "estimates based on a bad estimate" crap.
Then, when it's obvious the project is about to fail without more money (not a shock for those with eyes open), the pitch is "Do you really want to waste $8B we already spent? Let's just add more money and get it finished!"
They never go back and revise those payback projections or cost over time, because the new estimates blow that analysis out of the water completely, and they can't justify the cost using the new numbers.
Sunk costs are gone. They are spent. You don't through good money after bad, as they say. Now you have to start over and ask, "What is the additional money going to buy us? What is the cost/benefit of adding more money? What's the additional cost if we just stop? Can we use that additional money better for other projects instead of creating an overpriced, underused, too expensive to operate train that doesn't go to the places it ought to?"
Don't ever fall for the "we don't want to waste the money already spent on a bad idea" appeal. It's for suckers!
But what about the returns? Are we going to lose $3 billion dollars with no benefit or spend $10 billion (give or take) and get at least some benefit from a rail system? It isn't just the case of we spent it, we might as well continue. The effects of this choice will be felt one way or another.
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But what about the returns? Are we going to lose $3 billion dollars with no benefit or spend $10 billion (give or take) and get at least some benefit from a rail system? It isn't just the case of we spent it, we might as well continue. The effects of this choice will be felt one way or another.
If you are going to change your position, then you should have said so. Instead you posted "I am at the point where I figure that so much of it is built already that I say just spend the extra money and finished," then contradicted yourself with "It isn't just the case of we spent it, we might as well continue."
Now you want to discuss the analysis of whether it's cost effective to continue the project? Why? The City hasn't bothered to do that, so why waste our time doing so?
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If you are going to change your position, then you should have said so. Instead you posted "I am at the point where I figure that so much of it is built already that I say just spend the extra money and finished," then contradicted yourself with "It isn't just the case of we spent it, we might as well continue."
Now you want to discuss the analysis of whether it's cost effective to continue the project? Why? The City hasn't bothered to do that, so why waste our time doing so?
Disclaimer: I am moderately intoxicated while I am replying to this message.
My personal opinion is that we should continue. Yes it is going to cost way more than originally planned but I think that the benefits of having a working system as a high cost outweigh having dumped money into a system with absolutely no benefit.
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Disclaimer: I am moderately intoxicated while I am replying to this message.
My personal opinion is that we should continue. Yes it is going to cost way more than originally planned but I think that the benefits of having a working system as a high cost outweigh having dumped money into a system with absolutely no benefit.
Unless you have one of your police buddies administer a BAC test then post the video, you're just trying to excuse the same contradictory BS you post on here ad infinitum! :stopjack:
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Unless you have one of your police buddies administer a BAC test then post the video, you're just trying to excuse the same contradictory BS you post on here ad infinitum! :stopjack:
I was not contradictory, What I was saying is that having spent the money is not in and of itself justification to keep on spending the money. We have to take the whole picture into account.
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Disclaimer: I am moderately intoxicated while I am replying to this message.
My personal opinion is that we should continue. Yes it is going to cost way more than originally planned but I think that the benefits of having a working system as a high cost outweigh having dumped money into a system with absolutely no benefit.
That's the very definition of falling for the "sunk cost fallacy"!!
Can you enumerate the benefits and then compare that with the additional costs? I don't think the benefits justified the original incomplete cost estimate. Now, without any new benefits, you think more money is justified?
Let me this explain the concept simply enough that even you get it:
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html
How the Sunk Cost Fallacy Makes You Act Stupid
In economics, a sunk cost is any past cost that has already been paid and cannot be recovered. For example, a business may have invested a million dollars into new hardware. This money is now gone and cannot be recovered, so it shouldn’t figure into the business’s decision making process.
Or, let’s say you buy tickets to a concert. On the day of the event, you catch a cold. Even though you are sick, you decide to go to the concert because otherwise “you would have wasted your money”.
Boom! You just fell for the sunk cost fallacy.
Sure, you spent the money already. But you can’t get it back. If you aren’t going to have a good time at the concert, you only make your life worse by going.
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In my previous job, I did work on FTA projects and yes, many times the thinking is "once the train gets momentum, it will be difficult/impossible to stop".
That said, I am surprised the FTA isn't making more noise about this. At least that I've heard about, which isn't saying much though since I've been out of that kind of work for a while. I guess they somehow set their $1.5 Bil (or something like that) into it and said "you're on your own after that". I thought the other highway projects that I worked on wasn't like that, but those projects actually came in under the allotted funding amount, even with unforeseen sight condition type mods.
Someone mentioned utilities being one of the main reasons for change orders so far. My perception/thoughts (no REAL proof) is that if they've had that much unforeseen sight condition type change orders in the segments so far, they'll be MUCH worse as they approach town.
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That's the very definition of falling for the "sunk cost fallacy"!!
Can you enumerate the benefits and then compare that with the additional costs? I don't think the benefits justified the original incomplete cost estimate. Now, without any new benefits, you think more money is justified?
Let me this explain the concept simply enough that even you get it:
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html
No, I do not have a $ cost benefit analysis. I am forming a general opinion. I think we need a rail system and I would rather shell out more money and finish the project than leave the project ugly and half finished.
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No, I do not have a $ cost benefit analysis. I am forming a general opinion. I think we need a rail system and I would rather shell out more money and finish the project than leave the project ugly and half finished.
As I said, that's the kind of illogical thinking the politicians and unions bank on. "Just finish da buggah. I don't care how much it costs now, I just wanna be able ride 'em before I die!"
That kind of thinking leads to doing stupid things. If it's going to take 3 times the original cost to finish, and that is if we stop at Middle Street, not Ala Moana, the cost will never be justified. That's why the city basically lied when they got the last increase in funding. They knew that wouldn't finish the rail, but they figure it's like boiling the proverbial frog. By the time you finish and it hits $18B, it'll be too late -- COOKED!
Why do they do this time after time? Because they can! People who don't care what it costs keep the gov't and the unions employed in spite of failure after failure.
It's all part of their plan.
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As I said, that's the kind of illogical thinking the politicians and unions bank on. "Just finish da buggah. I don't care how much it costs now, I just wanna be able ride 'em before I die!"
That kind of thinking leads to doing stupid things. If it's going to take 3 times the original cost to finish, and that is if we stop at Middle Street, not Ala Moana, the cost will never be justified. That's why the city basically lied when they got the last increase in funding. They knew that wouldn't finish the rail, but they figure it's like boiling the proverbial frog. By the time you finish and it hits $18B, it'll be too late -- COOKED!
Why do they do this time after time? Because they can! People who don't care what it costs keep the gov't and the unions employed in spite of failure after failure.
It's all part of their plan.
Do you think they would leave it up as an eye sore and liability or would they approve more money to have it all removed?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think they should have a blank check, but it is the case that we either cut our loses and gain no benefit from what was spent or we keep going and end up with the benefit of a working rail system. Whether a working rail system is worth the additional expenditure is a valid question in all of that of course.
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Do you think they would leave it up as an eye sore and liability or would they approve more money to have it all removed?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think they should have a blank check, but it is the case that we either cut our loses and gain no benefit from what was spent or we keep going and end up with the benefit of a working rail system. Whether a working rail system is worth the additional expenditure is a valid question in all of that of course.
I'm going to say this as plainly as I can .... the money you keep saying you want to get some benefit from --- IT IS GONE. SPENT. YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT AGAIN.
Remember the Super Ferry? How much was spent on that? In the end, the company that bought the ferries sold them and cut their losses. You have to decide on what's right going forward financially. Sometimes that means diverting those limited resources (money) to projects that have the best chance to succeed.
What about the multimillion dollar health connector website and exchange? More sunk costs. They aren't pouring more money into a failed program to "hold onto" the money they spent so it's not wasted. It's spent. gone. never coming back. No company worth anything makes decisions using sunk costs. It's something they all have to learn to do. Financially, you have to decide if money already spent represents a viable investment going forward or not. You can't "hoard" bad projects for fear of "losing" the money it already cost you. Bad logic!!
As for the rail project, there has been benefit. Construction, shipping, and all kinds of other companies' employees have been paying their mortgages and going to Vegas vacations because the project made jobs.
That money is spent. Any benefit that money would bring has been realized already. In reality, it's the money we are GOING TO SPEND FROM THIS POINT FORWARD that would bring the rail to completion. If we stop now, no rail trains will be carrying people. That's what the current, what, $10B has given us? If completion costs another $5B and stops short, that's the cost you have to weigh against any benefit of spending that money.
You can only control what we have yet to spend. What has been spent so far is an over budget failure. Adding more money will not erase that. You have to ask, what ELSE can we spend that $5B on that will give us some positive results. Maybe you want the GET to be raised a couple more times so we can keep funding this "useful project"? Better yet, we could have just used the money to pay companies to allow people to work from home. Would have been cheaper for about 20 years, and fewer cars on the road. As the concept became mainstream, the incentives wouldn't be needed after some time.
I guess in Hawaii, the odds are, anything we try to do for over a billion bucks is going to end badly .... therefore one failed, over budget fiasco is as good as the next. Sad we are forced to think that way.
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I'm going to say this as plainly as I can .... the money you keep saying you want to get some benefit from --- IT IS GONE. SPENT. YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT AGAIN.
If the rail is finished then you would see that money in terms of a functioning rail system. You are right, you wont "get the money back" but you will have something to show for it. Stop now and we have nothing to show for it. Yes I realize that we have to evaluate whether the extra money is worth it or not. I believe that it may be worth it but I am waiting to see what the latest round of estimates and investigations reveal. Maybe some smart person can get it built without going significantly higher. We may have to agree to disagree there.
Sooner or later we are going to need some mass transit system to be implemented. Maybe, like others have said, a bus system with dedicated lanes will be the eventual outcome.
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If the rail is finished then you would see that money in terms of a functioning rail system. You are right, you wont "get the money back" but you will have something to show for it. Stop now and we have nothing to show for it. Yes I realize that we have to evaluate whether the extra money is worth it or not. I believe that it may be worth it but I am waiting to see what the latest round of estimates and investigations reveal. Maybe some smart person can get it built without going significantly higher. We may have to agree to disagree there.
Sooner or later we are going to need some mass transit system to be implemented. Maybe, like others have said, a bus system with dedicated lanes will be the eventual outcome.
No, if that were true, all projects would be black holes for cash until they are finished. I understand you can't wrap your head around this concept, because it goes against your "logical" thinking and "simplistic" thought processes. I predicted that.
If you don't get it, then I can't help you. Try doing some reading, I know Google is your friend. Maybe someone can get you to see the light.
In the meantime, continuing to try and push your incorrect conclusions will not change the situation. Trust me when I say the sunk cost fallacy exists, and you are living proof!!
:stopjack:
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Eyeeatingfish, the sunk cost fallacy / concept is taught in business school and is hard for people to grasp.
In business school, you are taught to weight cost vs benefit.
As someone pointed out, the benefit of the money already spent in rail IS the contracting jobs that kept people employed to build the rail and keep our economy going up to now. Government likes to spend on public work projects as it keeps people happily employed.
Was this a good investment of the monies spent? Again, since these are all already "sunk cost", then the answer to this doesn't really matter anymore. At this point, are additional monies / costs / taxes worth spending to keep this going? That is the business question that needs to be answered at this point.
Benefit / returns of the rail may not be there if the rail stays too expensive to operate and needs to be subsidized by additional taxes to operate. It is throwing more good money after bad. In business analysis, you have to sometimes cut your losses if the cost is too high. Do what you need to do to stop the bleeding.
You have to look at the actual investment amount + operating expense + expected revenue to see if there really is a net positive effect. (Kind of like, does the assault weapons ban really had an effect to anything?)
Here's a short video explaining sunk cost.
https://youtu.be/N_zA5cLutJI
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I believe this project was pursued under an FTA Capital Improvements grant. I was reviewing the information and I couldn't find in what happens if an FTA funded project get's canned. Does the state have to pay back some of the money? I will try to read more when I have time and also ask my contacts at DOT.
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Sunk cost.
Let's say each dollar is a soldier. You were told you would need to send 5000 soldiers to their death to take a hill.
Now you are told you will need to send another 5000 more to their deaths to take it and possibly more to hold it in place.
You need to figure out if the mission makes sense or is there a better use of the additional soldiers elsewhere.
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Eyeeatingfish, the sunk cost fallacy / concept is taught in business school and is hard for people to grasp.
In business school, you are taught to weight cost vs benefit.
As someone pointed out, the benefit of the money already spent in rail IS the contracting jobs that kept people employed to build the rail and keep our economy going up to now. Government likes to spend on public work projects as it keeps people happily employed.
Was this a good investment of the monies spent? Again, since these are all already "sunk cost", then the answer to this doesn't really matter anymore. At this point, are additional monies / costs / taxes worth spending to keep this going? That is the business question that needs to be answered at this point.
Benefit / returns of the rail may not be there if the rail stays too expensive to operate and needs to be subsidized by additional taxes to operate. It is throwing more good money after bad. In business analysis, you have to sometimes cut your losses if the cost is too high. Do what you need to do to stop the bleeding.
You have to look at the actual investment amount + operating expense + expected revenue to see if there really is a net positive effect. (Kind of like, does the assault weapons ban really had an effect to anything?)
That issue I highlighted in red is the issue I am getting at. I don't believe that the money invested till now is what justifies continuing to spend more money. I am still leaning towards the position that the extra cost will be worth it in the end.
I do think that even if we stopped the rail construction tomorrow, we would still end up spending more money on this project because people would complain about ugly pillars and want them taken down. Liability would also be a concern. So even if we cut our losses on the project, we still might be putting more money into it. Now if that were the case, I would rather the extra money lost to the project be towards a complete system than the alternative.
Do you think they would leave the pillars up, half finished?
As Drck1000 pointed out, we might end up getting screwed if we stop due to the FTA grant. All factors to consider really.
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Stop rail, but keep what has already been built as a monument to stupidity. Grade schools can have excursions to the failed rail project and this will teach them a valuable lesson. To count the cost before starting anything, including a new business and then add a minimum of 25% for unexpected costs.
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Hawaii Stonehenge
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Hawaii Stonehenge
Shade .....
for people sitting in their cars in gridlock!
:rofl:
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Stop rail, but keep what has already been built as a monument to stupidity. Grade schools can have excursions to the failed rail project and this will teach them a valuable lesson. To count the cost before starting anything, including a new business and then add a minimum of 25% for unexpected costs.
I did just have maybe a crazy good idea... Homeless encampment!
Though I don't want careless stinky intoxicated homeless above me... Nevermind, scratch that. Stupid idea.
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Elevated bike path. Less costly/difficult than converting to a roadway.
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I paid for a car with four wheels not two.
This is a tax scam.
Now that rail tax is going to be permanent not for initial cost but for operating the expensive damn thing. Somewhere we are paying for somebody's kids' college education, house etc. sound familiar?
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Interesting video.
If you can't stay conscious for the whole testimony, at least watch from about 4:30 timemark to the end.
https://youtu.be/6H2QPwg8wcs
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If that's the case, the City Council should be investigated.
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I may be new to Hawaii, but I say investigate the a-holes that run this, reevaluate cost, and finish it. If it can be proved that some ass hat misappropriated funds, then burn him/her at the stake, but finish the rail under new contract. I'm from the SF bay, and our light rail really is an asset during our horrid commute, so I say finish it, and get a useful product. But make the a-holes who over-benefited from the tax payers pay.
Eh? Eh?
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I may be new to Hawaii......... But make the a-holes who over-benefited from the tax payers pay.
Eh? Eh?
Unfortunately, as you will soon learn, Hawaii with its liberal one party no accountability political system, incompetence and corruption gets you a promotion and a pat on the back.
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The rail is expected to reduce traffic congestion by 1%, so banking on "people may switch" isn't a good planning goal.
For a population of 1 million, and a cost of over $12billion SO FAR (not counting maintenance), the rail will never be self-sustaining.
For a population of 1 million people with aprox 900k vehicles our freeways (and roads) will never be able to Handel the load, In the 10 years (2004=2014) the number of vehicles registered in Honolulu went from 688163 to 816738 a 17%increase, where as the population went from 918181 to 956336 (2005-2015) an increase of only 4%.
A reduction in the number of cars on the road not only decreases the amount of traffic but also the wear and tear on infrastructure, If the number of vehicles on the road expands at the same rate by 2034 there would be aprox 1.1 million vesicles on the roads with no room for meaningful expansion And with most new housing being built on the west side and most jobs being located in Honolulu city trafic can only be expected to increase at the same rate, making a 35 minute drive (light trafic) from Honolulu to Kapolei into 47 minute drive and a morning traffic drive from 1.5 hrs into 2 hr drive,
now a 45 minute train ride with a 10-15 minute bus transfer dosent sound so bad and with an estimated pass costing $90-$120 it will be cheaper then driving (remember gas prices are super low right now because we are at war with Russia and they could go back up any time)
Sources :
https://data.hawaii.gov/Economic-Development/Motor-Vehicle-Registration-Trend/i6gp-tvm3/data (https://data.hawaii.gov/Economic-Development/Motor-Vehicle-Registration-Trend/i6gp-tvm3/data)
http://population.us/county/hi/honolulu-county (http://population.us/county/hi/honolulu-county)
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Classic smoke and mirrors techniques to get the project off the ground and worry about the rest later. HART knew this if not from day 1, they knew it on day 2. They go into these projects understanding this and knowing the problems that they will face. They have pre-planned contingencies for how to address issues when they arise. Very little is a true surprise.
The wheels were properly greased from the start so once the project started there was no stopping it. The Feds aren't going to do a damn thing either. Big business is not going to give a damn what any of us think and no oversight entity is going to resist the machine that is budgeted in the billions. Everyone is going to play ball, one way or another and money talks. The only way is if someone gets pissed off, or if their piece of the pie is lacking.
For this price tag, we could have had everything in the City, all infrastructure, roads, sewers, electric, parks, schools, etc, completely overhauled and had money left over. We can't provide air conditioned classrooms, but can pay for this pig of a project?
Also the phase "throwing good money after bad" comes to mind. We are going to be carrying the burdens of annual operating costs, long after we have been fleeced from the construction costs. AND they are purposely keeping the public in the dark as to what it will cost annually to operate. Guess who is going to pay for it? Yes they will have to break the news to the public sooner or later, but again it will be too late. They are going to hand each and every one of us a shit sandwich and you will have to eat it.
We seriously need an overhaul and anyone who cannot see this, is just as much a part of the problem as the Fat Cats in business and the politicians who are getting rich on it. The difference is they are getting rich and eating filet mignon and you are getting poorer and getting a shit sandwich to chew on.
Eat up.
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Classic smoke and mirrors techniques to get the project off the ground and worry about the rest later. HART knew this if not from day 1, they knew it on day 2. They go into these projects understanding this and knowing the problems that they will face. They have pre-planned contingencies for how to address issues when they arise. Very little is a true surprise.
The wheels were properly greased from the start so once the project started there was no stopping it. The Feds aren't going to do a damn thing either. Big business is not going to give a damn what any of us think and no oversight entity is going to resist the machine that is budgeted in the billions. Everyone is going to play ball, one way or another and money talks. The only way is if someone gets pissed off, or if their piece of the pie is lacking.
For this price tag, we could have had everything in the City, all infrastructure, roads, sewers, electric, parks, schools, etc, completely overhauled and had money left over. We can't provide air conditioned classrooms, but can pay for this pig of a project?
Also the phase "throwing good money after bad" comes to mind. We are going to be carrying the burdens of annual operating costs, long after we have been fleeced from the construction costs. AND they are purposely keeping the public in the dark as to what it will cost annually to operate. Guess who is going to pay for it? Yes they will have to break the news to the public sooner or later, but again it will be too late. They are going to hand each and every one of us a shit sandwich and you will have to eat it.
We seriously need an overhaul and anyone who cannot see this, is just as much a part of the problem as the Fat Cats in business and the politicians who are getting rich on it. The difference is they are getting rich and eating filet mignon and you are getting poorer and getting a shit sandwich to chew on.
Eat up.
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Will there be anyone running against Hanabusa for Takai's seat?
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Last I heard was no one wants to run against her because she already has a substantial war chest.
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I personally like rail. I don't mind the additional small tax. For the sake of fucking traffic its worth it. I rather pay a few bucks then spend a few more minutes in traffic every day.
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I personally like rail. I don't mind the additional small tax. For the sake of fucking traffic its worth it. I rather pay a few bucks then spend a few more minutes in traffic every day.
I wouldn't be surprised if they find ways to charge people using the freeway a little more. I don't think toll booths would be realistic but I can imagine some sort of vehicle tax being raised to help pay for the rail or incentives people's use of it.
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1. does the rail look unstable to you? it looks top heavy and it would tip over easily in the event of an earthquake...
2. With all the curves and up and downs (since its built using the existing road layouts), how could we possibly expect it to reach high enough speeds to make it efficient and feasible?
3. Say the railcars fill up in Kapolei, and say it reaches maximum capacity of riders by the time it reaches Pearl City. The folks in Pearl City will have to wait for the train to drop its load off in town, come back past them, to the start in Kapolei, then catch it the 2nd time it passes Pearl City to get to town, assuming the 2nd time isn't again packed with folks from Kapolei and Waipahu... It's a 1 lane road. The single rail system can only ensure that people move in 1 direction at any given time.
Meanwhile, TheBus is making things much easier by offering an AllDay pass for only $5, effectively eliminating transfers and attracting riders. Or a one way ride for $2.50 A major improvement if you ask me. :thumbsup: for TheBus
4. and then of course there is the awful ugliness of it... peep the graffiti that is already on the artist rendering! lol
(http://honolulumagazine-images.dashdigital.com/images/2011/July11/rail6.jpg?ver=1309221377)
http://honolulumagazine-images.dashdigital.com/images/2011/July11/rail6.jpg?ver=1309221377
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1. does the rail look unstable to you? it looks top heavy and it would tip over easily in the event of an earthquake...
2. With all the curves and up and downs (since its built using the existing road layouts), how could we possibly expect it to reach high enough speeds to make it efficient and feasible?
3. Say the railcars fill up in Kapolei, and say it reaches maximum capacity of riders by the time it reaches Pearl City. The folks in Pearl City will have to wait for the train to drop its load off in town, come back past them, to the start in Kapolei, then catch it the 2nd time it passes Pearl City to get to town, assuming the 2nd time isn't again packed with folks from Kapolei and Waipahu... It's a 1 lane road. The single rail system can only ensure that people move in 1 direction at any given time.
Meanwhile, TheBus is making things much easier by offering an AllDay pass for only $5, effectively eliminating transfers and attracting riders. Or a one way ride for $2.50 A major improvement if you ask me. :thumbsup: for TheBus
4. and then of course there is the awful ugliness of it... peep the graffiti that is already on the artist rendering! lol
Nope, thats how they are built all around the world
Even if it does the whole rout at 25mph thats still faster then the 15mph on the freeway
Its not 1 rail its 2 rails, 1 in 1 out with multiple trains running
its really not that ugly, just takes some time to get used to seeing it, Just like any new building project.
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We are so deep in the hole with rail why bother with stupid decorations?
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/8180262/rail-columnsclose-up*750xx2000-1125-0-104.jpg)
so dumb.
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According to the news this rail is now coasting the tax payers 10 BILLION. One of the issues is that the concrete is cracking and in some places the pillars are already sinking (settling as they call it) so they have put shims between the pillar and rail. I have on a couple of accounts spoke with some of the rail workers and what they say is "This rail is a joke" The estimated cost is going to exceed 10 BILLION and what does that mean for the people of Hawaii? Our taxes go up so we the Hawaiian people pay for the rail and our pay will remain the same. Not to mention the rebar they bought for the rail was bought way to early and is now rusting. Do you think they will clean the rust off the rebar before applying concrete to this metal? According to the workers....NO! The rust will not allow the rebar to adhere to the concrete causing no support. No support, and in a few years concrete starts to crack Hawaii is 10+Billion in the hole because of this rail, how fast do you think they are going to fix the crack? I tell you this I bet they raise our taxes again before they fix the cracks and the shifting of pillars. Rant over.
In other words, government continues to be a complete incompetent boondoggle lining the pockets of "friends" at the expense of taxpayers. See: Obamacare website (talk about a boondoggle!) contract to Michelle Obama's friend, $900 million unrepaid "loan" to Obama donor CEO of Solyndra that never produced a single photovoltaic panel, Oroville dam, etc., etc., etc.
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1. does the rail look unstable to you? it looks top heavy and it would tip over easily in the event of an earthquake...
2. With all the curves and up and downs (since its built using the existing road layouts), how could we possibly expect it to reach high enough speeds to make it efficient and feasible?
3. Say the railcars fill up in Kapolei, and say it reaches maximum capacity of riders by the time it reaches Pearl City. The folks in Pearl City will have to wait for the train to drop its load off in town, come back past them, to the start in Kapolei, then catch it the 2nd time it passes Pearl City to get to town, assuming the 2nd time isn't again packed with folks from Kapolei and Waipahu... It's a 1 lane road. The single rail system can only ensure that people move in 1 direction at any given time.
Meanwhile, TheBus is making things much easier by offering an AllDay pass for only $5, effectively eliminating transfers and attracting riders. Or a one way ride for $2.50 A major improvement if you ask me. :thumbsup: for TheBus
4. and then of course there is the awful ugliness of it... peep the graffiti that is already on the artist rendering! lol
(http://honolulumagazine-images.dashdigital.com/images/2011/July11/rail6.jpg?ver=1309221377)
http://honolulumagazine-images.dashdigital.com/images/2011/July11/rail6.jpg?ver=1309221377
1. It's funny you mention that. I was looking at it and realized that we had not built that portion of it yet. And I was thinking that the columns look much smaller in diameter than what we are actually building. Artists renderings sometimes are not to scale.
2. I think it is capable of getting up to 45 or faster. The problem is there are so many stops along the route. If my memory is correct the route is 20 miles long and there are 21 stations along the way. Of which the majority are located in the second section from the stadium to the mall.
3. There are two sets of rails up there. One set for each direction. And they will be running trains every 5 or 10 minutes. So if one is full you can wait for the next. But yes, you are correct. If they are all full the people in PC will be waiting a long ass time.
4. Graffiti is becoming a huge problem here. It is much worse than when I first moved here. They have special paint which won't allow for graffiti paint to stick well and it easily cleans. It may help. If you think this portion is ugly, just look at the portion that Ren posted below. Even uglier IMHO.
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We are so deep in the hole with rail why bother with stupid decorations?
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/8180262/rail-columnsclose-up*750xx2000-1125-0-104.jpg)
so dumb.
The designs in the columns denote where a station is going to be located. Coming soon to an area near you.
Note how large around the columns are with the large capitals. To me this is much more ugly than the artist renderings. But who says we are going to build it to look like that.
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I want all of you to note that the first 3 stations were let out to contract quite a while ago and HD is just now building the first one in Waipahu. The second half of the rail has been let out to contract and they have not even started on it yet. If they are going to have to build their own precast yard like Kiewit did, it will be at least another year or two before they get started on the second half of the rail. And you think it is only up to $10 Billion now? Just wait. $15-$20 is not out of the question.
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I want all of you to note that the first 3 stations were let out to contract quite a while ago and HD is just now building the first one in Waipahu. The second half of the rail has been let out to contract and they have not even started on it yet. If they are going to have to build their own precast yard like Kiewit did, it will be at least another year or two before they get started on the second half of the rail. And you think it is only up to $10 Billion now? Just wait. $15-$20 is not out of the question.
Yeah, but Dave, as a responsible citizen who willing makes whatever "contribution" is necessary for the "good of the people" (as determined by you-know-who), what possible better use could you put your hard-earned tax dollars to?
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1. does the rail look unstable to you? it looks top heavy and it would tip over easily in the event of an earthquake...
2. With all the curves and up and downs (since its built using the existing road layouts), how could we possibly expect it to reach high enough speeds to make it efficient and feasible?
3. Say the railcars fill up in Kapolei, and say it reaches maximum capacity of riders by the time it reaches Pearl City. The folks in Pearl City will have to wait for the train to drop its load off in town, come back past them, to the start in Kapolei, then catch it the 2nd time it passes Pearl City to get to town, assuming the 2nd time isn't again packed with folks from Kapolei and Waipahu... It's a 1 lane road. The single rail system can only ensure that people move in 1 direction at any given time.
Meanwhile, TheBus is making things much easier by offering an AllDay pass for only $5, effectively eliminating transfers and attracting riders. Or a one way ride for $2.50 A major improvement if you ask me. :thumbsup: for TheBus
4. and then of course there is the awful ugliness of it... peep the graffiti that is already on the artist rendering! lol
1. From the casual observer, yeah, they probably appear top heavy. However, in this case, it's more about the torsional properties of the section than the center of mass. If you look at freeways around the country, there are thousands built with similar sections called box girders. Very common. Earthquake forces also depend on the natural frequency of the structure. Oahu in general isn't that high an EQ risk area. Not like the Big Island. Even then, the mechanism for EQs in Hawaii aren't the same as in say the west coast. While EQs occur in Hawaii, they aren't that common. And industry standard isn't to design to resist the worst case. So when people say that a building is designed to be EQ proof, yeah, no such thing. They are typically designing to a certain percentage of a projected maximum.
2. Look at rail in other cities like SF, Seattle and Chicago. They aren't going that fast. Even in Japan. I have no idea what the cars are capable of, but the curves (vertical or horizontal) aren't anything that I would think would matter. At least from when I worked on the rail maintenance yard. . .
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I want all of you to note that the first 3 stations were let out to contract quite a while ago and HD is just now building the first one in Waipahu. The second half of the rail has been let out to contract and they have not even started on it yet. If they are going to have to build their own precast yard like Kiewit did, it will be at least another year or two before they get started on the second half of the rail. And you think it is only up to $10 Billion now? Just wait. $15-$20 is not out of the question.
In my previous job, we competed for all of the initial projects and we actually were teamed up to work on the rail maintenance yard near Leeward CC. I've been at my current job for almost 7 years now. When I left the previous company, I think the maintenance yard was already completed design and starting construction.
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Yeah, but Dave, as a responsible citizen who willing makes whatever "contribution" is necessary for the "good of the people" (as determined by you-know-who), what possible better use could you put your hard-earned tax dollars to?
Boy you are grumpy this morning. I think you need another cup of coffee! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
But seriously your sarcasm is noted. Socialism doesn't work. That is why we are the state with the most debt as compared to GDP. That is not a statistic that I would be proud of. The good of the people? What about diverting a large amount of tax money from children's education this year in order to increase the D.O.E.'s bureaucracy? Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people. Just raise the GET/VAT to 5% and make the rail tax permanent. Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people. While we are at it let's increase property taxes so us retired seniors can't afford to live a simple life and might have to go back to work. Or how about those landlords who will have to raise the rents on everyone here in order to pay for the increase in property taxes? Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people. We have the worst homeless problem in the U.S. So let's keep doing what we have been that we know doesn't work and just throw money at the problem while all of Ige's buddies get richer. Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people.
Boy, I am so fucking grumpy this morning. I am going to go get another cup of coffee. :shake: :shake: :shake:
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In my previous job, we competed for all of the initial projects and we actually were teamed up to work on the rail maintenance yard near Leeward CC. I've been at my current job for almost 7 years now. When I left the previous company, I think the maintenance yard was already completed design and starting construction.
I am currently contracted out to the local contractor who is teamed up with Kiewit to build the maintenance yard. The other day I heard that this contractor is still out there doing some work (probably minor in nature).
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I am currently contracted out to the local contractor who is teamed up with Kiewit to build the maintenance yard. The other day I heard that this contractor is still out there doing some work (probably minor in nature).
"There is evidence for concern at this point. There are some obvious failures," said Panos Prevedouros, a frequent rail critic and a University of Hawaii civil engineering professor.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/28827333/large-cracks-develop-along-rail-line
Could the Honolulu rail project be delayed again?
That’s what the Honolulu Authority for Rapid Transportation is trying to figure out after a defect was found in rail cars.
The issue lies within aluminum beams that make up the structure of the rail cars. We’re told the manufacturer has stopped production and 27 rail cars could be affected.
http://khon2.com/2016/12/15/honolulus-rail-faces-possible-delay-after-defect-found-in-rail-cars/
The Honolulu Authority for Rapid Transportation’s board of directors wants a more thorough investigation of rail components — and answers about money — in the wake of several quality and safety-related flaws Always Investigating revealed earlier this year.
The board chair also shared details from the latest cost estimates for the full project, which now stand at $8.6 billion, up from $8.3 billion earlier this summer. The estimate also puts the finish date near December 2025, a pushback from 2024 at last budget.
We were first to report several tendons that hold the segments together had snapped, and that shims to level the track have begun to crack already. The mounting flaws pose more than just construction-related problems. Both the tendon system and the shims will have to be closely watched, maintained and replaced as needed for the life of the line.
http://khon2.com/2016/09/29/hart-wants-deeper-look-into-critical-rail-construction-problems/
:wtf:
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http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/28827333/large-cracks-develop-along-rail-line
http://khon2.com/2016/12/15/honolulus-rail-faces-possible-delay-after-defect-found-in-rail-cars/
http://khon2.com/2016/09/29/hart-wants-deeper-look-into-critical-rail-construction-problems/
:wtf:
What's your point? This is business as usual in Hawaii! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Boy you are grumpy this morning. I think you need another cup of coffee! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
But seriously your sarcasm is noted. Socialism doesn't work. That is why we are the state with the most debt as compared to GDP. That is not a statistic that I would be proud of. The good of the people? What about diverting a large amount of tax money from children's education this year in order to increase the D.O.E.'s bureaucracy? Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people. Just raise the GET/VAT to 5% and make the rail tax permanent. Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people. While we are at it let's increase property taxes so us retired seniors can't afford to live a simple life and might have to go back to work. Or how about those landlords who will have to raise the rents on everyone here in order to pay for the increase in property taxes? Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people. We have the worst homeless problem in the U.S. So let's keep doing what we have been that we know doesn't work and just throw money at the problem while all of Ige's buddies get richer. Yeah, I'm all for the good of the people.
Boy, I am so fucking grumpy this morning. I am going to go get another cup of coffee. :shake: :shake: :shake:
I'm all for that. At least for the next 20 years. . . I keed, I keed.
I am currently contracted out to the local contractor who is teamed up with Kiewit to build the maintenance yard. The other day I heard that this contractor is still out there doing some work (probably minor in nature).
Gotta keep the contract open. That way they can keep amending it to add stuff to work on. :grrr:
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What's your point? This is business as usual in Hawaii! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I made my point: :wtf:
I thought it was apparent! >:D :geekdanc:
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I made my point: :wtf:
I thought it was apparent! >:D :geekdanc:
I was being sarcastic. Your point is well taken or should I say documented. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Panos Prevedouros, a frequent rail critic and a University of Hawaii civil engineering professor
He's mostly knowledgeable, I'll give him that. That said, he knows enough about structural engineering to be dangerous and mostly spins things out of proportion, which is typical of politicians.
Cracking in concrete construction is nothing new. If anyone can produce concrete that doesn't crack, they will be richer than the King of Indonesia. . . Yeah, some of that stuff is disturbing and if properly contracted, the contractor should be taking care of that without additional cost. The reality is that they will roll that cost into other change orders, which is really where HART and others are failing. That said, it is really tough business to negotiate that stuff, but not impossible.
One thing with the rail is that it is super visible to the public. Thousands drive by it every day and see everything. You should see what kinds of flaws that occur in typical building construction and ends up being covered up with some spackle (essentially).
I was never for the rail in the current version. That said, I see a lot of attacks on things that the contractors are actually doing ok on, like the actual construction.
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Boy you are grumpy this morning. I think you need another cup of coffee! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Boy, I am so fucking grumpy this morning. I am going to go get another cup of coffee. :shake: :shake: :shake:
I'm like Trump, I don't drink coffee (or alcohol... no wonder the libtards think he's mentally ill!). Anyone who's paying attention to what's going on, especially in the political realm of Hawaii or the U.S. (everywhere else as well, really) and isn't at least mildly indignant, if not outraged by the lying, cheating, stealing crony-enriching (substantial percentage of) politicians is in denial. Or whatever you want to call looking through rose-colored glasses. But hey, it's all good! :shaka:
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Gotta keep the contract open. That way they can keep amending it to add stuff to work on. :grrr:
All the contractors here know how to work the system. And they get away with it. :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
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All the contractors here know how to work the system. And they get away with it. :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Sad to say, it's not just the contractors. . . Many times that can't be done without at least some complicity (maybe ignorantly inadvertent complicity) from the contract administrator.
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Sad to say, it's not just the contractors. . . Many times that can't be done without at least some complicity (maybe ignorantly inadvertent complicity) from the contract administrator.
I don't usually work up at that level. But that is quite sad.
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I'm like Trump, I don't drink coffee (or alcohol... no wonder the libtards think he's mentally ill!).
Booze is good in moderation.
On a side note still 100% for the rail. I hope it works and am perfectly fine paying a bit more taxes to get it finished.
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Booze is good in moderation.
Let me just take a wild guess... 97% of internists and psychiatrists and psychologists agree the booze is good in moderation? Wonder if that claim will generate 191 replies and 2,583 views like the same percentage claim for AGW? ;)
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Let me just take a wild guess... 97% of internists and psychiatrists and psychologists agree the booze is good in moderation? Wonder if that claim will generate 191 replies and 2,583 views like the same percentage claim for AGW? ;)
Don't leave out "I'm 100% for the rail".
is that 100% regardless of total cost, including construction, maintenance and improvements? Even if it does nothing to alleviate traffic on island? Even if the rest of our infrastructure is going to hell (ala California's dam)??
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Don't leave out "I'm 100% for the rail".
is that 100% regardless of total cost, including construction, maintenance and improvements? Even if it does nothing to alleviate traffic on island? Even if the rest of our infrastructure is going to hell (ala California's dam)??
You forgot the lack of pothole repair here in Hawaii:
http://www.lexbrodies.com/Files/Media/Pothole_In_Paradise_Ep1_2015_lores.mp4
https://lexbrodies.com/Files/Media/Pothole_Blues_Ep2_2015_LoRes.mp4
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You forgot the lack of pothole repair here in Hawaii:
http://www.lexbrodies.com/Files/Media/Pothole_In_Paradise_Ep1_2015_lores.mp4
Part of "infrastructure -- roads". :)
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Don't leave out "I'm 100% for the rail".
is that 100% regardless of total cost, including construction, maintenance and improvements? Even if it does nothing to alleviate traffic on island? Even if the rest of our infrastructure is going to hell (ala California's dam)??
Hey, don't bring California into it... they've spent $25 BILLION A YEAR for "social services" (aka "welfare") for illegal aliens, which they harbor as a "sanctuary state". That $50 million cost to reinforce the Oroville dam a decade ago when the potential problems were verified and made public is now likely over $200 million, not to mention the "inconvenience" of 200,000 people having had to evacuate their homes and jobs for days... it's like a race to see which government entity can do the stupidest most wasteful thing. :wtf:
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Here is my post from Facebook the other day:
So the NYT wrote an article last year regarding Kalifornia's unending drought. I guess the Kalifornia politicians thought that this article told the truth because they decided to spend more money than they take in on things like harboring illegal alien criminals instead of fixing the main water release way on the Oroville Damn. The politicians have known about the damage to the main waterway for the last 10 years. In doing this they risked the lives of literally 100's of thousands of people. Can you imagine if anyone was killed due to this lack of repair and maintenance. That would make the politicians directly responsible for those deaths. Oh wait, they are allowing everyone to go back into their homes when they are expecting heavy rains this week again. Wake up Kalifornia!
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/10/us/california-drought-water-restrictions-permanent.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FGlobal+Warming&action=click&contentCollection=science®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=411&pgtype=collection
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Here is my post from Facebook the other day:
So the NYT wrote an article last year regarding Kalifornia's unending drought. I guess the Kalifornia politicians thought that this article told the truth because they decided to spend more money than they take in on things like harboring illegal alien criminals instead of fixing the main water release way on the Oroville Damn. The politicians have known about the damage to the main waterway for the last 10 years. In doing this they risked the lives of literally 100's of thousands of people. Can you imagine if anyone was killed due to this lack of repair and maintenance. That would make the politicians directly responsible for those deaths. Oh wait, they are allowing everyone to go back into their homes when they are expecting heavy rains this week again. Wake up Kalifornia!
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/10/us/california-drought-water-restrictions-permanent.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FGlobal+Warming&action=click&contentCollection=science®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=411&pgtype=collection
My mother used to live in Oroville, very near the dam, and I used to hike across that spillway many years ago. I have no absolutely no background in engineering, but I still pondered why so many dams seemed to be made of concrete and this one was "earth". I hoped that was some damned dense earth. When I saw the first news of the historic first-time-ever release over the emergency spillway it was filled with statements of "There is absolutely no danger to the public. Totally safe. Engineered to handle precisely this situation. Been inspected regularly. Etc.". I actually laughed out loud when less than 12 hours later I saw the headlines "Evacuate!". People (especially government people) are so full of shit.
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Looked up the Oroville dam and this image came up.
(https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/34/114534-004-DF79024E.jpg)
I'm not a dam engineer (I get a chuckle from this) as well, but it does have an "impervious" core, which consists of a concrete dam liner when the river was diverted.
My old company did reports on when the dam failed in Kauai. I think it was Koloa. When we talked about it in the manager's meetings, it was referred to as "The Dam Report". But more like "damn report". ;D
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Looked up the Oroville dam and this image came up.
(https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/34/114534-004-DF79024E.jpg)
I'm not a dam engineer (I get a chuckle from this) as well, but it does have an "impervious" core, which consists of a concrete dam liner when the river was diverted.
My old company did reports on when the dam failed in Kauai. I think it was Koloa. When we talked about it in the manager's meetings, it was referred to as "The Dam Report". But more like "damn report". ;D
i didn't know "pervious" was a word
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The rail is ridiculous, I said it from the start, if people still have to drive their cars or bus it to the stations just to get on the rail, it is useless. In major cities where rail has been successful (i.e. Tokyo, Hong Kong, Toronto) the rail serves a densely populated area within the heart of the city, where passengers would benefit most from having stops and stations near their destinations. But no, Hawaii's rail does not do that, it only serves to transport a certain region of people (central and westside) to town, and that's it, there is no added utility other than that.
Furthermore, nobody suggested to incorporate sustainable energy (i.e. pv panels or hybrid technology like you would find in toyota camry hybrids) into the rail system. They could have, at the very least, incorporated a pv system on the roof of the train cars, or on the roofs on the stop-station structures. But no, we love to think INSIDE the box, innovation is NOT in our blood, and there is ZERO determination to set a global standard, we love to think locally, and that is not a solution, it's a problem.
The rail is, was, and will be a fiasco. The past, present, and future of Hawaii folks.
Furthermore, THE RAIL SERVES TO BENEFIT ONLY A CERTAIN REGION OF PEOPLE, and for a trivial cause: to relieve TRAFFIC. What I mean by this is, for example, folks in Waimanalo, Kaneohe, East Honolulu, North Shore, Laie, and I can venture to say Maui, Kauai, Big Island, simply do not and will not ever need to use the rail, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT SERVE THEIR LOCATIONS. SO WHY WOULD THEY PAY FOR SOMETHING THEY WOULD NEVER UTILIZE? I call babooze alert on the a-holes that pushed the rail through...... it's a scam, a sham, corruption, and Kiewit and all the other contractors are the only ones gaining financially....... >:( >:( :( :(
You do know that the other islands don't pay for the rail right??!?
The 0.5% charge is county based.
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Let me just take a wild guess... 97% of internists and psychiatrists and psychologists agree the booze is good in moderation? Wonder if that claim will generate 191 replies and 2,583 views like the same percentage claim for AGW? ;)
Nope neither agree that its good. This is just conjecture but I believe in moderation alcohol inst really that bad for you. A large consensus of humans on earth who enjoy it.
Don't leave out "I'm 100% for the rail".
is that 100% regardless of total cost, including construction, maintenance and improvements? Even if it does nothing to alleviate traffic on island? Even if the rest of our infrastructure is going to hell (ala California's dam)??
Yes for the total cost, including construction, maintenance and improvements. It should help the traffic and I want more rail if it doesn't. As for our infrastructure that should be kept up or actually funded more. If taxes need raising it should be raised on gas, and certain luxury goods like cigarettes.
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Looked up the Oroville dam and this image came up.
(https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/34/114534-004-DF79024E.jpg)
I'm not a dam engineer (I get a chuckle from this) as well, but it does have an "impervious" core, which consists of a concrete dam liner when the river was diverted.
My old company did reports on when the dam failed in Kauai. I think it was Koloa. When we talked about it in the manager's meetings, it was referred to as "The Dam Report". But more like "damn report". ;D
Interesting the way it is constructed. It is also interesting that there are no problems with the dam itself. The dam appears well constructed. Even the main concrete spillway appears well constructed.
The only problems were with the two spillways. The main spillway is concrete and it had a previous massive failure that got progressively worse during the draining of the dam. Material from the huge hole in the main concrete spillway went down river and killed a bunch of fish in a fish farm down the river. So they slowed down the rate of water draining from the main concrete spillway and allowed the water to spill over the earthen emergency spillway. But the emergency spillway was never designed to have that much water to spill over it for that long. And so it started to erode and that is what they were afraid of failing.
Wikipedia has an interesting time line of events leading up to the evacuation.
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i didn't know "pervious" was a word
Look up pervious concrete. Concrete that water can drain right through. Interesting stuff.
Sorry, I am an old concrete inspector and kinda nerdy about these things.
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Look up pervious concrete. Concrete that water can drain right through. Interesting stuff.
Sorry, I am an old concrete inspector and kinda nerdy about these things.
Ok show off. What's tremie concrete? :p
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Ok show off. What's tremie concrete? :p
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A tremie is used in the placement of concrete in deep shafts in order to not drop concrete a great distance. But tremie concrete? Never heard of it.
BTW, the maximum allowable drop of concrete was removed from the building code. It was in the UBC when I left construction and when I came back in 2008 we are using the IBC/ACI 318. Not sure when it was removed but I tried looking it up and it's gone. :geekdanc: :geekdanc: :geekdanc:
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Ok show off. What's tremie concrete? :p
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Okay I googled it and I have to say I have never used a tremie to place concrete under water. I have only used a pump for placement under water or to displace water/slurry. I have only used a tremie so as to not allow the free fall of concrete.
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Ok show off. What's tremie concrete? :p
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OK I have one for you.
Why is the term "Concrete Pour" incorrect?
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OK I have one for you.
Why is the term "Concrete Pour" incorrect?
Ahhh, you're one of those "concrete is placed not poured" zealots. Haha
My college professor was super sensitive to use of cement. If you said something like a "cement wall", he'd almost go ballistic. I still kinda laugh when people say stuff like that.
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With this inevitable rail circus growing, maybe there's a silver lining. I can picture DJT dangling a "green" carrot in front of Ige and playing him and the rest of the blue state and city like a cheap fiddle.
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Nope neither agree that its good. This is just conjecture but I believe in moderation alcohol inst really that bad for you. A large consensus of humans on earth who enjoy it.
I see. I thought your first claim was something different than "conjecture" and "isn't really bad for you". I must have misread it. No, wait. Here it is:
Quote from: omnigun on Today at 01:20:27 PM
"Booze is good in moderation."
I don't see any qualifiers in there about that claim being your opinion/conjecture, nor that it "isn't really bad for you". I think there is a difference between "good for you" and "isn't really bad for you". You then non sequitur to the claim that there is "a large consensus of humans on earth who enjoy it". Is that supposed to have some connection to the claim(s) that it is, firstly, good for you or, secondly, not bad for you? There is an even larger consensus of humans on earth who enjoy inhaling the smoke of burning tobacco, but that is not evidence that it "isn't really bad for you", nor that it is "good [for you] in moderation". I'm not arguing for banning any substances, on the contrary, it's none of the government's business what people ingest... until they harm someone else because of it (impaired driving, theft, assault, etc.) and we already have laws against impaired/negligent driving, theft, assault, etc. I'm just questioning the basis of your (changing) opinions about the health consequences of consuming alcohol and what majority and significant use has to do with any of those issues. Next thing you know someone will be arguing for an "assault weapons" ban because most people favor it (and that at least has a connection to a right, which alcohol and tobacco certainly don't).
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Ahhh, you're one of those "concrete is placed not poured" zealots. Haha
My college professor was super sensitive to use of cement. If you said something like a "cement wall", he'd almost go ballistic. I still kinda laugh when people say stuff like that.
Yeah, I'm one of those. And I'm like your college professor as well. Drives me nuts when I hear the news report things like a cement truck broken down on the freeway and they show a ready mixed truck.
BTW, I used to teach in California for a state sponsored adult reeducation program. Carpenters, pump operators, rod busters, etc. who were hurt on the job and collecting disability were put into our reeducation classes. I taught Reinforced Concrete, Post Tensioned Concrete and Structural Masonry. I taught both engineering and inspection practices. I also taught plan reading and I volunteered for the ACI Concrete Field Testing Technician testing and education programs. It was only a part time gig for me but I enjoyed it immensely. I missed my real calling of teaching.
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I see. I thought your first claim was something different than "conjecture" and "isn't really bad for you". I must have misread it. No, wait. Here it is:
Quote from: omnigun on Today at 01:20:27 PM
"Booze is good in moderation."
I don't see any qualifiers in there about that claim being your opinion/conjecture, nor that it "isn't really bad for you". I think there is a difference between "good for you" and "isn't really bad for you". You then non sequitur to the claim that there is "a large consensus of humans on earth who enjoy it". Is that supposed to have some connection to the claim(s) that it is, firstly, good for you or, secondly, not bad for you? There is an even larger consensus of humans on earth who enjoy inhaling the smoke of burning tobacco, but that is not evidence that it "isn't really bad for you", nor that it is "good [for you] in moderation". I'm not arguing for banning any substances, on the contrary, it's none of the government's business what people ingest... until they harm someone else because of it (impaired driving, theft, assault, etc.) and we already have laws against impaired/negligent driving, theft, assault, etc. I'm just questioning the basis of your (changing) opinions about the health consequences of consuming alcohol and what majority and significant use has to do with any of those issues. Next thing you know someone will be arguing for an "assault weapons" ban because most people favor it (and that at least has a connection to a right, which alcohol and tobacco certainly don't).
Okay booze is good emotionally for you in moderation. Physically in most cases there is no lasting damage if done in moderation. Smoking has proven to be bad for you even in moderation.
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Okay booze is good emotionally for you in moderation. Physically in most cases there is no lasting damage if done in moderation. Smoking has proven to be bad for you even in moderation.
So what's your take on why so many people seem unable to "moderate" their consumption of alcohol (and thus exhibit "poor judgment", such as getting behind the wheel of an automobile)? I can't recall the hypothesized projections of how many drunk drivers there are every day, but it is some fairly large multiple of the number of citations issued. Oh, never mind. :stopjack: How 'bout that rail?! Can't wait for my chance to pay more taxes so we can have one here on the Big Island.
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Okay I googled it and I have to say I have never used a tremie to place concrete under water. I have only used a pump for placement under water or to displace water/slurry. I have only used a tremie so as to not allow the free fall of concrete.
It's a somewhat specialized method and usually somewhat specialized mix due to environmental conditions, which is usually salt water. I guess I kinda cheated there because it's not often new private waterfront structures are built.
Yeah, I'm one of those. And I'm like your college professor as well. Drives me nuts when I hear the news report things like a cement truck broken down on the freeway and they show a ready mixed truck.
BTW, I used to teach in California for a state sponsored adult reeducation program. Carpenters, pump operators, rod busters, etc. who were hurt on the job and collecting disability were put into our reeducation classes. I taught Reinforced Concrete, Post Tensioned Concrete and Structural Masonry. I taught both engineering and inspection practices. I also taught plan reading and I volunteered for the ACI Concrete Field Testing Technician testing and education programs. It was only a part time gig for me but I enjoyed it immensely. I missed my real calling of teaching.
Cement to the construction world is kind of like clip in the firearms world. One of the most misused words and one that can make those familiar in that field/world cringe. Clip doesn't affect me much anymore to be honest, but I know many to will literally go red in the face. Another one is earthquake proof.
You mean you taught "masonary". :P
When I worked in Seattle, I started right out of college. So by 30, I had a good amount of experience, but still looked young (Asian blood). I would get all sorts of old timers trying to tell me all sorts of "we've always done it that way" BS, thinking I was some 1-2 year engineer. One popular one was that they only need to vibrate masonry grout once. . . uh, no. Sometimes the older guys in my office would joke that sometimes being a "gray haired" engineer has it's benefits, in that they look older and usually don't get that kind of stuff. Hell, I still get that now and I've been doing this for 20 years. :grrr:
PT was my specialty when I work in Seattle. It was the up and coming method at that time and not that many were trained in design. Good stuff if used properly.
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HNN had a segment this morning about how the legislature did not come with funding to continue rail. Caldwell was interviewed and said we need another $3B to finish this project. Wonder what happens after current funds run out this summer.
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HNN had a segment this morning about how the legislature did not come with funding to continue rail. Caldwell was interviewed and said we need another $3B to finish this project. Wonder what happens after current funds run out this summer.
Negotiate a "deal" with Trump for a federal "bailout"? Raise taxes? Screw the citizens over one way or another?
I can hardly wait for the "excuses" to start rolling in after the rail gets completed about why it hasn't ameliorated traffic congestion, etc. ("It'd be worse without it", etc.)., It never ends. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)
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FUND THE RAIL. lol at this point we might as well. Raise taxes on gas or vehicles or something. I'll pay it.
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FUND THE RAIL. lol at this point we might as well. Raise taxes on gas or vehicles or something. I'll pay it.
You can pay my part, too. I'll never have a reason to ride the rail anyway, assuming I'm alive when it's finally operational.
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It's a somewhat specialized method and usually somewhat specialized mix due to environmental conditions, which is usually salt water. I guess I kinda cheated there because it's not often new private waterfront structures are built.
Cement to the construction world is kind of like clip in the firearms world. One of the most misused words and one that can make those familiar in that field/world cringe. Clip doesn't affect me much anymore to be honest, but I know many to will literally go red in the face. Another one is earthquake proof.
You mean you taught "masonary". :P
When I worked in Seattle, I started right out of college. So by 30, I had a good amount of experience, but still looked young (Asian blood). I would get all sorts of old timers trying to tell me all sorts of "we've always done it that way" BS, thinking I was some 1-2 year engineer. One popular one was that they only need to vibrate masonry grout once. . . uh, no. Sometimes the older guys in my office would joke that sometimes being a "gray haired" engineer has it's benefits, in that they look older and usually don't get that kind of stuff. Hell, I still get that now and I've been doing this for 20 years. :grrr:
PT was my specialty when I work in Seattle. It was the up and coming method at that time and not that many were trained in design. Good stuff if used properly.
Cement, clips, heads - Can't we all just get along?
Masonary!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
It's funny you mention the "gray haired". I found it was not until I turned really gray that most of the superintendents and foremen stopped arguing with me.
When I was inspecting the construction of the Kapolei Commons Theater I was constantly challenged by a rod buster foreman who was around my age. He was constantly insulting and talked down to me. Very hard to work with. I work with this type all the time. I know most of the tricks of the trade but I am never too old to learn something new. One day he was tying some iron at 13" on center that was supposed to be at 12" on center. This was across 15 or so feet. I knew right away what he was doing. He knew the code states the bars have to be +/- 1". But what he didn't know is the code also states the correct number of bars have to be in place. So over 15' he had tied 15 bars but 16 were required. He thought he was getting away with something because he thought he was within code. When I pointed out that the code also calls out for the correct number of bars be placed and he was missing a bar he blew up and started shouting and cussing. He even through down his hard hat. I just stood there and laughed and asked him if he was finished. That's when his demeanor changed and he said he'll bring the missing bar the next day before the pour. After that he never talked that way to me again. And he was actually quite friendly after that. Funny what a little gray hair can do...
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Funny what a little gray hair can do...
Maybe Caldwell has too much gray hair. He not getting anyone to listen. LOL
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You can pay my part, too. I'll never have a reason to ride the rail anyway, assuming I'm alive when it's finally operational.
Nah I'm not riding the rail either but we all gotta pay or atleast everyone who drives would the ideal plan. Cause this is going to hopefully help you in the end.
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Nah I'm not riding the rail either but we all gotta pay or atleast everyone who drives would the ideal plan. Cause this is going to hopefully help you in the end.
Yeah, with hope and 5 bucks you can buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks (I think).
And, yeah, it's gonna help him in the end, and everyone else in the end... the back end... now bend over!
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Nah I'm not riding the rail either but we all gotta pay or atleast everyone who drives would the ideal plan. Cause this is going to hopefully help you in the end.
We are never going to see $10B in benefit from the rail, no matter what you try to say. And $10B is just the most recent estimate.
The anticipated ridership won't be able to sustain operational costs. More taxes to continue paying for it.
You don't seem to have much understanding of the value of money, today and in the future, and how to do a cost-benefit analysis. Otherwise, you'd never make ignorant comments like "Cause this is going to hopefully help you in the end."
(http://i.imgur.com/qU8hGlg.jpg)
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http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/35358311/hart-shutting-down-rail-would-cost-3-billion (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/35358311/hart-shutting-down-rail-would-cost-3-billion)
(http://i.imgur.com/FFQjl2R.gif)
http://i.imgur.com/2VfecQ1.mp4
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Cement, clips, heads - Can't we all just get along?
Masonary!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
It's funny you mention the "gray haired". I found it was not until I turned really gray that most of the superintendents and foremen stopped arguing with me.
When I was inspecting the construction of the Kapolei Commons Theater I was constantly challenged by a rod buster foreman who was around my age. He was constantly insulting and talked down to me. Very hard to work with. I work with this type all the time. I know most of the tricks of the trade but I am never too old to learn something new. One day he was tying some iron at 13" on center that was supposed to be at 12" on center. This was across 15 or so feet. I knew right away what he was doing. He knew the code states the bars have to be +/- 1". But what he didn't know is the code also states the correct number of bars have to be in place. So over 15' he had tied 15 bars but 16 were required. He thought he was getting away with something because he thought he was within code. When I pointed out that the code also calls out for the correct number of bars be placed and he was missing a bar he blew up and started shouting and cussing. He even through down his hard hat. I just stood there and laughed and asked him if he was finished. That's when his demeanor changed and he said he'll bring the missing bar the next day before the pour. After that he never talked that way to me again. And he was actually quite friendly after that. Funny what a little gray hair can do...
Inspector stories? I have many of those. Seems like the entertaining ones are with rod busters.
I'm generally pretty easy going until people try to lie to my face about correcting non-conforming work. Like physics, it's easy to document non-conformance.
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Inspector stories? I have many of those. Seems like the entertaining ones are with rod busters.
I'm generally pretty easy going until people try to lie to my face about correcting non-conforming work. Like physics, it's easy to document non-conformance.
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Don't know what it is about rod busters but they seem to be the ones who are doing non conforming work more often than some other trades.
It's funny how some subs will argue til the cows come home but as soon as you say you are writing the non conformance in your report it gets fixed almost immediately. Not sure why that happens? [/sarcasm]
Next time we have dinner I will tell you what I am currently doing and the lies that keep on coming.....
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This evening news said now they are actually looking whether the cost to dismantle the rail will be cheaper than to finish. Some say it will cost the same, $3B to complete or dismantle so may as well finish. On the other hand, the UH Professor P?? (don't know how to spell his name) says it take way more than $3B to take it to Ala Moana. I say just leave it unfinished as is. Then our future generations can look at it and remember to count the cost before starting any project.
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Then our future generations can look at it and remember to count the cost before starting any project.
I doubt future generations will be any less susceptible than this one to be duped by politicians lining their own pockets with "donations" and "future benefits" from the contractors, et al. who rake in the billions of the original "projected costs" and the many billions more of "revised cost estimates" to "finish" a project. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
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This evening news said now they are actually looking whether the cost to dismantle the rail will be cheaper than to finish. Some say it will cost the same, $3B to complete or dismantle so may as well finish. On the other hand, the UH Professor P?? (don't know how to spell his name) says it take way more than $3B to take it to Ala Moana. I say just leave it unfinished as is. Then our future generations can look at it and remember to count the cost before starting any project.
no worries, omimpotent says he's gonna pay for it (along with the 97% of rail supporters who support rail)
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Cement, clips, heads - Can't we all just get along?
Masonary!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
It's funny you mention the "gray haired". I found it was not until I turned really gray that most of the superintendents and foremen stopped arguing with me.
When I was inspecting the construction of the Kapolei Commons Theater I was constantly challenged by a rod buster foreman who was around my age. He was constantly insulting and talked down to me. Very hard to work with. I work with this type all the time. I know most of the tricks of the trade but I am never too old to learn something new. One day he was tying some iron at 13" on center that was supposed to be at 12" on center. This was across 15 or so feet. I knew right away what he was doing. He knew the code states the bars have to be +/- 1". But what he didn't know is the code also states the correct number of bars have to be in place. So over 15' he had tied 15 bars but 16 were required. He thought he was getting away with something because he thought he was within code. When I pointed out that the code also calls out for the correct number of bars be placed and he was missing a bar he blew up and started shouting and cussing. He even through down his hard hat. I just stood there and laughed and asked him if he was finished. That's when his demeanor changed and he said he'll bring the missing bar the next day before the pour. After that he never talked that way to me again. And he was actually quite friendly after that. Funny what a little gray hair can do...
Not the same but my similar story was when I was a 1st year apprentice. On a Friday the 1545 whistle had blown and as I went to the gang area to get my time card, my old boss was holding it. He told me I had to work weekend and I said I cannot. He was not going to give me my timecard so I just walked off and went home. Apparently he must have punched me out since I didn't lose any time or pay. Smartest thing I did; he never harassed me after that. If I gave in, I'm convinced he would ride my okole till I went to another gang.
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I was a rail supporter before only because it would give leeward and central Oahu people an alternate way to get to town (like my daughter who catches the bus and has been trapped in multi hour traffic jams on the viaduct) and would provide high paying trade and technical jobs. I also always thought the anti-rail people were saying "no can" like the Superferry or other ideas to make improvements. I hate that "no can" mentality. Also in trying to downsize my home, I was thinking about moving to a duplex or townhome in the new proposed Koa Ridge development.
However with Hanabusa getting involved, the growing incompetence of HART and the politicians involved and nobody being held accountable, I support cutting our losses and stopping the project by the Kalihi bus station. or wherever the last dollar in their budget takes it. Hope this provides a lessons learned to HI people and make a difference in the next elections. I also hope the feds with hold rail money unless HI makes a deal with DJT to tow the line, stop this sanctuary crap and stop infringing on guaranteed individual rights.
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This evening news said now they are actually looking whether the cost to dismantle the rail will be cheaper than to finish. Some say it will cost the same, $3B to complete or dismantle so may as well finish. On the other hand, the UH Professor P?? (don't know how to spell his name) says it take way more than $3B to take it to Ala Moana. I say just leave it unfinished as is. Then our future generations can look at it and remember to count the cost before starting any project.
More BS, pro rail, "might as well finish it" propoganda.
Don't we find it ironic that they are saying it will cost the same 3B to scrap it as it will cost to finish it. They didn't come up with number and that lie arbitrarily. They want people to keep the gravy train going, "might as well finish it". If it has cost them about 500 million dollars per mile, how much more will that actually cost to finish it all the way? Sure as hell ain't gonna be 3 billion as once they hit town area's that is where the real expenses are going to kick in. They are so full of crap and they are counting on everyone being stupid enough to go along with it. The rail is going to get waaay more expensive per mile than what it is now, or what they are telling everyone.
We're the laughing stock of the world when it comes to a mass transit system. And you know who's laughing the most. Those getting PAID ridiculous amounts of money and lining their fleeced pockets.
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We are never going to see $10B in benefit from the rail, no matter what you try to say. And $10B is just the most recent estimate.
The anticipated ridership won't be able to sustain operational costs. More taxes to continue paying for it.
You don't seem to have much understanding of the value of money, today and in the future, and how to do a cost-benefit analysis. Otherwise, you'd never make ignorant comments like "Cause this is going to hopefully help you in the end."
That's fine with me. There are things I'm willing to pay for that are not profitable. Its a convenience perk.
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That's fine with me. There are things I'm willing to pay for that are not profitable. Its a convenience perk.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's not just YOU paying. It's all tax payers, our children and their children paying. You really don't know how stripping $10+ billion dollars from that many people's wallets will effect individuals and families, businesses and so forth.
I'm starting to believe you work for HART.
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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's not just YOU paying. It's all tax payers, our children and their children paying. You really don't know how stripping $10+ billion dollars from that many people's wallets will effect individuals and families, businesses and so forth.
I'm starting to believe you work for HART.
Flapp, the guy is a selfish, self centered little brat. He only cares about how it effects himself and doesn't care how the higher taxes and looming debt will hurt the poor, the retirees and less fortunate that live here and are just trying to get by. His post was all about him. Hell, all of his posts have been all about himself. I am sure he already has a plan in place to move to the mainland somewhere in case his own financial situation turns to shit. It is people like Omni that voted for this debacle and continue to support it even when faced with the potential financial ruin for the C&C, state and those who are living here. The bad part here is when the truth/reality finally comes out many years from now, he is not smart enough to put two and two together to realize he had a hand in it. And if he is that smart, he won't care. JMHO
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Inspector, do you think this rail project will have an impact on the real estate market?
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Inspector, do you think this rail project will have an impact on the real estate market?
Before I answer I have to give a little disclaimer. Anything I say here is only my opinion and not the opinion of any one else including Kona Ka'u Realty and their owners and employees. Also, I cannot predict the future so I have no way of knowing what the value of the real estate market and/or individual properties are going to be in the future. With that said, anything I say here is strictly only my opinion. And BTW, I am still limited by the rules of my real estate license to what I can and cannot say.
My opinion of the entire rail project is that any where there is a station there will more than likely be new and/or additional housing and commercial properties built. We already see Ho'opili Station where the station is in the middle of a farm field and Ho'opili housing project is being built. Estimated 12k new homes and 18k more cars getting on the H1 during rush hour. These numbers includes the estimated ridership riding the rail. There is new construction being planned and/or built around the Kroc center. The West Oahu Campus was built including a station across the street. A new very large outdoor mall opened recently right down the street at Kapolei Parkway and Kualakai (Old North-South Road). And more stores and restaurants are still being built. These are the facts and estimate as the rail progresses. And still there is a housing shortage here on Oahu. As long as there is a shortage there will be pressure on prices to increase. It doesn't mean that will happen, it is just how the market usually works. With that said, I just read that the economy in Hawaii is slowing down quickly. What does that mean? It means if housing equals or exceeds demand then pressure on housing prices will more than likely go down. Those who are building housing will slow or stop construction if the economy slows significantly. We have seen this in the past. Commercial will be put on hold but eventually they will complete their construction. Historically, this is what has happened in the past.
My opinion: The rail was built exclusively to line the pockets of the politicians (now retired/moved on) and help out their friends and family who are investing in housing and commercial construction along the rail near the stations. It will never be known which came first, the stations or the planned development. But I think it is quite obvious. Of course we have already caught the lies of the real reason the rail was ramrodded down our throats including the political corruption surrounding the decision to get the rail started without taking bids. Our justice department decided not to prosecute those caught. There is so much more I want to say but can't. :shaka: :shaka: :shaka:
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More like I understand if we don't have any rail or form of quick transport we will only get more and more cars till we end up like LA traffic. With time ridership will grow and we can add more stops. Look I've been to places that have subways and rail and it works great. Especially japan it was so convenient if something like that was here I would probably not even drive. Both of your visions is in the present, from your talk you don't give a shit about 20 years from now. Its all about muh taxes and muh money right now. As we grow we need to expand on modes of transportation. Unless both of you are all for building another highway or limiting the amount of cars people can own, or where people can live.
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More like I understand if we don't have any rail or form of quick transport we will only get more and more cars till we end up like LA traffic.
sounds like you are NOT saying "Believe what you want to believe if someone says something you don't agree doesn't mean they are wrong."
oh, wait, you are not saying we are wrong, just that we don't understand it because we are not omimpotent
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More like I understand if we don't have any rail or form of quick transport we will only get more and more cars till we end up like LA traffic. With time ridership will grow and we can add more stops. Look I've been to places that have subways and rail and it works great. Especially japan it was so convenient if something like that was here I would probably not even drive. Both of your visions is in the present, from your talk you don't give a shit about 20 years from now. Its all about muh taxes and muh money right now. As we grow we need to expand on modes of transportation. Unless both of you are all for building another highway or limiting the amount of cars people can own, or where people can live.
I really don't get why you lie so much? My position about the rail and traffic congestion relief is all over this forum. And it is nothing l'ike what you said here. Your accusations here are completely unfounded and completely not true. But yet you lie and try and tell me how I feel and what I think? My post above references future tax burdens and the hurt that is going to be put on everyone in the future. I never said anything about now and only now. Are you really that much of a moron that you can't see that a tax that is intiated now hurts EVERYONE FAR INTO THE FUTURE? What kind of idiot would say what you just said?
I intend to live here until I die. Hopefully that will be at least another 20 years. I will be a retiree in 3 years hopefully. And in 3 years I will be on a fixed income. Any tax increases won't hurt me today while I am still working, but will hurt me when I am on a fixed income. It may even be that the taxes initiated now may force me to extend my having to work a few more years before I can afford to retire. I won't know until they make up their minds what the tax increases are going to be. And you tell me I am not looking towards the future? It is your view of now that is showing through here. It is YOU that can only see in the NOW. Why else would you say that a tax that is forever only hurts everyone now? You said that, I didn't.
My vision of what and how we should do to relieve the traffic congestion in the future is very different and much better than what we are doing now. And it is well documented all throughout this thread and forum. I have talked in detail throughout this thread and forum about how much I support rail transport. Just not the version of the rail that was forced upon us. I have talked in great detail about better alternatives such as double decking the H1 like that was done in LA that works much better than rail and cost much less. And you tell me I have no vision about how to relieve traffic congestion in the future? You sir are nothing but a moron.
I have also gone on record here in this forum (not this thread) that rail works really well in highly congested LARGE cities. But not in small congested cities like Honolulu where busses work much better and not in spread out situations such as what we have here on Oahu. And in cities where they have similar situations to Honolulu and Oahu, their rail does not work well either. Why can't we learn from their mistakes instead of forcing a naive vision upon the taxpayers here that we all know won't work as designed before it is even built? Why force heavy rail upon us when light rail will work as good and costs much less? Who is the moron who supports our current rail system that does not service those who need it most (like in Waianae, Mililani, Kanehoe and Kailua), supports stops where no housing even exists (like in a farm field), ends at the mall but does not continue on to UH Manoa so students will benefit, and supports the use of raised guiderails across farm fields where bringing rails to the ground are so much less expensive, and supporting the rail to go through tsunami zones so in case of tsunami it can be damaged or destroyed, and supporting heavy rail when light rail is a cheaper and smarter choice? You sir are that moron.
I suggest you read about someones positions before you lie about what they stand for in front of everyone here. Because if anyone here thought you have any type of knowledge, you just showed them what the village idiot looks like. And it is you.
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n/m.....not worth it.
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More like I understand if we don't have any rail or form of quick transport we will only get more and more cars till we end up like LA traffic. With time ridership will grow and we can add more stops. Look I've been to places that have subways and rail and it works great. Especially japan it was so convenient if something like that was here I would probably not even drive. Both of your visions is in the present, from your talk you don't give a shit about 20 years from now. Its all about muh taxes and muh money right now. As we grow we need to expand on modes of transportation. Unless both of you are all for building another highway or limiting the amount of cars people can own, or where people can live.
Quick form of transport? What is your definition of "quick?"
The estimates by HART say it'll take 53 minutes by rail to go from Kapolei to Downtown Honolulu.
The Bus takes about 52 minutes or more in rush hour traffic for the same distance, depending on conditions. As a benefit, The Bus can also take you to destinations OTHER THAN where the train stations are built.
In non-rush-hour conditions, The Bus takes 32 minutes. So, if you use the train ONLY for commuting twice a day, you're on par with The Bus. If you also use it for night time or mid-day trips and on weekends, you're averaging much QUICKER than the train.
Facts are pesky little things, huh?
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With time ridership will grow and we can add more stops.
so now you are a rail designer at heart?
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so now you are a rail designer at heart?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Look I've been to places that have subways and rail and it works great.
and the rest of us unknowing people have sadly never been to any of these places that you have honored with your presence
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I really don't get why you lie so much? My position about the rail and traffic congestion relief is all over this forum. And it is nothing l'ike what you said here. Your accusations here are completely unfounded and completely not true. But yet you lie and try and tell me how I feel and what I think? My post above references future tax burdens and the hurt that is going to be put on everyone in the future. I never said anything about now and only now. Are you really that much of a moron that you can't see that a tax that is intiated now hurts EVERYONE FAR INTO THE FUTURE? What kind of idiot would say what you just said?
I intend to live here until I die. Hopefully that will be at least another 20 years. I will be a retiree in 3 years hopefully. And in 3 years I will be on a fixed income. Any tax increases won't hurt me today while I am still working, but will hurt me when I am on a fixed income. It may even be that the taxes initiated now may force me to extend my having to work a few more years before I can afford to retire. I won't know until they make up their minds what the tax increases are going to be. And you tell me I am not looking towards the future? It is your view of now that is showing through here. It is YOU that can only see in the NOW. Why else would you say that a tax that is forever only hurts everyone now? You said that, I didn't.
My vision of what and how we should do to relieve the traffic congestion in the future is very different and much better than what we are doing now. And it is well documented all throughout this thread and forum. I have talked in detail throughout this thread and forum about how much I support rail transport. Just not the version of the rail that was forced upon us. I have talked in great detail about better alternatives such as double decking the H1 like that was done in LA that works much better than rail and cost much less. And you tell me I have no vision about how to relieve traffic congestion in the future? You sir are nothing but a moron.
I have also gone on record here in this forum (not this thread) that rail works really well in highly congested LARGE cities. But not in small congested cities like Honolulu where busses work much better and not in spread out situations such as what we have here on Oahu. And in cities where they have similar situations to Honolulu and Oahu, their rail does not work well either. Why can't we learn from their mistakes instead of forcing a naive vision upon the taxpayers here that we all know won't work as designed before it is even built? Why force heavy rail upon us when light rail will work as good and costs much less? Who is the moron who supports our current rail system that does not service those who need it most (like in Waianae, Mililani, Kanehoe and Kailua), supports stops where no housing even exists (like in a farm field), ends at the mall but does not continue on to UH Manoa so students will benefit, and supports the use of raised guiderails across farm fields where bringing rails to the ground are so much less expensive, and supporting the rail to go through tsunami zones so in case of tsunami it can be damaged or destroyed, and supporting heavy rail when light rail is a cheaper and smarter choice? You sir are that moron.
I suggest you read about someones positions before you lie about what they stand for in front of everyone here. Because if anyone here thought you have any type of knowledge, you just showed them what the village idiot looks like. And it is you.
But, other than that, you agree with him? :rofl:
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But, other than that, you agree with him? :rofl:
Yeah, other than that, I totally agree with him. :shake: :shake: :shake: :shake:
I should have quoted Howard Stern's father yelling at Howard: "Don't be stupid you moron!". :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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so now you are a rail designer at heart HART?
Fixed it.
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I really don't get why you lie so much? My position about the rail and traffic congestion relief is all over this forum. And it is nothing l'ike what you said here. Your accusations here are completely unfounded and completely not true. But yet you lie and try and tell me how I feel and what I think? My post above references future tax burdens and the hurt that is going to be put on everyone in the future. I never said anything about now and only now. Are you really that much of a moron that you can't see that a tax that is intiated now hurts EVERYONE FAR INTO THE FUTURE? What kind of idiot would say what you just said?
I intend to live here until I die. Hopefully that will be at least another 20 years. I will be a retiree in 3 years hopefully. And in 3 years I will be on a fixed income. Any tax increases won't hurt me today while I am still working, but will hurt me when I am on a fixed income. It may even be that the taxes initiated now may force me to extend my having to work a few more years before I can afford to retire. I won't know until they make up their minds what the tax increases are going to be. And you tell me I am not looking towards the future? It is your view of now that is showing through here. It is YOU that can only see in the NOW. Why else would you say that a tax that is forever only hurts everyone now? You said that, I didn't.
My vision of what and how we should do to relieve the traffic congestion in the future is very different and much better than what we are doing now. And it is well documented all throughout this thread and forum. I have talked in detail throughout this thread and forum about how much I support rail transport. Just not the version of the rail that was forced upon us. I have talked in great detail about better alternatives such as double decking the H1 like that was done in LA that works much better than rail and cost much less. And you tell me I have no vision about how to relieve traffic congestion in the future? You sir are nothing but a moron.
I have also gone on record here in this forum (not this thread) that rail works really well in highly congested LARGE cities. But not in small congested cities like Honolulu where busses work much better and not in spread out situations such as what we have here on Oahu. And in cities where they have similar situations to Honolulu and Oahu, their rail does not work well either. Why can't we learn from their mistakes instead of forcing a naive vision upon the taxpayers here that we all know won't work as designed before it is even built? Why force heavy rail upon us when light rail will work as good and costs much less? Who is the moron who supports our current rail system that does not service those who need it most (like in Waianae, Mililani, Kanehoe and Kailua), supports stops where no housing even exists (like in a farm field), ends at the mall but does not continue on to UH Manoa so students will benefit, and supports the use of raised guiderails across farm fields where bringing rails to the ground are so much less expensive, and supporting the rail to go through tsunami zones so in case of tsunami it can be damaged or destroyed, and supporting heavy rail when light rail is a cheaper and smarter choice? You sir are that moron.
I suggest you read about someones positions before you lie about what they stand for in front of everyone here. Because if anyone here thought you have any type of knowledge, you just showed them what the village idiot looks like. And it is you.
I wasn't singling you out solely..... I was talking about the general consensus of this thread. I do agree with you that HART is fucked up and should be fixed but in the end I still support the rail. Sure it could be better, but it could be worse. We got what we got.
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I wasn't singling you out solely..... I was talking about the general consensus of this thread. I do agree with you that HART is fucked up and should be fixed but in the end I still support the rail. Sure it could be better, but it could be worse. We got what we got.
This rail boondoggle is the nation's largest infrastructure fiasco in US history.
It's already the WORST project ever. That's based on the projected cost from over a year ago.
Saying "it could be worse" makes me ask "how much more worse can it get?" So, yes, I guess it is getting worse ... and worse ... and worse .....
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/16766/Honolulu-Rail-Project-Cost-Approaching-One-Half-of-Boston-Big-Dig.aspx
Honolulu Rail Project Cost Approaching One Half of Boston’s Big Dig!
by Dr Panos Prevedouros, PhD, FixOahu, January 21, 2016
Many people can recall Boston’s Big Dig, the nation’s largest infrastructure fiasco with a final price tag of about $15 billion. Surprisingly,
Honolulu is building a rail system that’s expected to cost at least one-half the cost of the Big Dig! On a per-capita basis, this will be
the nation’s largest infrastructure fiasco.
Despite the preponderance of evidence that Honolulu’s rail will do little to mitigate chronic traffic congestion on the island of Oahu, the
project garnered marginal (50.6%) public support on a 2008 referendum. Despite a couple major lawsuits, it completed the Federal Full
Funding Grant Agreement process in 2012.
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I may have mentioned this before so forgive me if I'm repeating myself. It will cost $10B to finish the rail to Ala Moana, another $2B to Kapolei, and another $3B to Waianae. If the rail was built 20 years from now, it would cost $100B. In another 10 years, the rail will be full, the buses will be full, and the highways will be full. In another 20 years, there will be housing communities from Ewa Villages to Mililani. In other words, we're effed.
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I WAS for the rail, but always with the caveat "if it was done right". I lived in Seattle when they were going through the proposal and development phase for their rail. I moved before it got started, but it is my understanding that it's doing well. However, that's because downtown Seattle has a pretty linear arrangement with two popular recreation type areas north and south of the city. Then there's UW and other "areas of interest" that are pretty much linear. That's NOT how Hawaii is layed out.
Then there are those that seem to fall back on how rail is successful elsewhere, like BART and the L. Look at the way those cities are arranged and logistics on how people get around. In Chicago, there are many areas where people just don't drive, so the train is convenient. You also have to have existing infrastructure to get people to the stations, like local buses, park and rides, etc. I didn't see good plans for those.
And you can't look at mass transit in places like Japan, China, etc and ask why can't it work here. . . are you kidding me? Totally different context. Yes, Hawaii may eventually end up like those cities, but they are worlds apart.
That's all without all of the political, corruption, etc BS that went on.
Yes, as the path gets past the airport, environmental and archaeological issues with be much more than what has already been completed.
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Don't know what it is about rod busters but they seem to be the ones who are doing non conforming work more often than some other trades.
It's funny how some subs will argue til the cows come home but as soon as you say you are writing the non conformance in your report it gets fixed almost immediately. Not sure why that happens? [/sarcasm]
Next time we have dinner I will tell you what I am currently doing and the lies that keep on coming.....
The worst I've dealt with are actually electricians and mechanical (HVAC guys). They typically come in after I've done my observation and they move stuff when they are explicitly told not to do. Later, they'll go and cut holes in my shearwall and then ask if they could. :facepalm: Then there are the guys that drill right where the markers for PT strands are and are surprised when they hear the bang of the tendon popping. :double facepalm:
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Flapp, the guy is a selfish, self centered little brat. He only cares about how it effects himself and doesn't care how the higher taxes and looming debt will hurt the poor, the retirees and less fortunate that live here and are just trying to get by. His post was all about him. Hell, all of his posts have been all about himself. I am sure he already has a plan in place to move to the mainland somewhere in case his own financial situation turns to shit. It is people like Omni that voted for this debacle and continue to support it even when faced with the potential financial ruin for the C&C, state and those who are living here. The bad part here is when the truth/reality finally comes out many years from now, he is not smart enough to put two and two together to realize he had a hand in it. And if he is that smart, he won't care. JMHO
I would add my 0.01 (not worth 0.02), but then we'd be accused of picking on him. . .
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...but in the end I still support the rail. Sure it could be better, but it could be worse. We got what we got.
If it could be better, why not do SOMETHING about it? Like protest and support defunding and tearing it down until we get a rail (or an even better solution) that is better and cheaper than what we have now? Why settle for mediocracy? Stand up to the government and make your voice heard. We deserve better! Don't just give up and say "We got what we got." That is being a milquetoast.
milquetoast:
noun, ( sometimes initial capital letter)
1. a very timid, unassertive, spineless person, especially one who is easily dominated or intimidated
And since you said it could be worse, please explain how it could be worse?
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Why settle for mediocracy?
I think the word you were looking for is "idiocracy"? :shaka:
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QUESTION: where is Mufi in all this?
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QUESTION: where is Mufi in all this?
Moved on. Still a DJ?
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If it could be better, why not do SOMETHING about it? Like protest and support defunding and tearing it down until we get a rail (or an even better solution) that is better and cheaper than what we have now? Why settle for mediocracy? Stand up to the government and make your voice heard. We deserve better! Don't just give up and say "We got what we got." That is being a milquetoast.
milquetoast:
noun, ( sometimes initial capital letter)
1. a very timid, unassertive, spineless person, especially one who is easily dominated or intimidated
And since you said it could be worse, please explain how it could be worse?
It could cost more or stop half way in kalihi and never continue again. At this point if we stop if will never finish. The bad taste is in our mouths if we don't see the good in this we will be stuck in the past and use cars for transport for our ever growing population. The rail is change. What i hope to get from this is after its finish and is successful we can move on to other projects and with the knowledge of our current mistakes we make changes and do it correctly. Just like trumps wall, if its not funded soon it will probably never get funded. Some things need to be finished sooner rather than later cause the enthusiasm diminishes with time.
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I think it will eventually be completed because in ten years when there's gridlock on the highways, people will ask why don't we complete the rail???
The rail might not work for most people initially but after several years, people will change their lives to make it easier by either moving or by choosing a job that is easier to use.
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QUESTION: where is Mufi in all this?
I noticed he is on the list of names to be selected from to form the committee to make suggestions to the Police Commission for Honolulu Police Chief candidates. One step above "meter maid", but not that much.
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The bad taste is in our mouths if we don't see the good in this we will be stuck in the past and use cars for transport for our ever growing population. The rail is change.
I think it will eventually be completed because in ten years when there's gridlock on the highways, people will ask why don't we complete the rail???
The rail might not work for most people initially but after several years, people will change their lives to make it easier by either moving or by choosing a job that is easier to use.
Once everyone is buying a significantly higher percentage of stuff online (delivered by drones) instead of at brick and mortar stores (as predicted with significant consequences by several "authorities"), other work done more via electronic communication, and we have flying cars, it'll all be mute. In the meantime politicians will continue to line their and their friends, cronies, and relatives pockets with all the taxpayer cash they can by whatever means. I still say: There is no end to it.
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If I heard correctly on tbe interview with UH Professor Panvos, he estimates it will take another $7B to take it to Ala Moana, not $3B like HART and Caldwell say. Given the track record of the latter two, I am inclined to believe the professor.
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If I heard correctly on tbe interview with UH Professor Panvos, he estimates it will take another $7B to take it to Ala Moana, not $3B like HART and Caldwell say. Given the track record of the latter two, I am inclined to believe the professor.
Had I not known (or suspected heavily) that Professor Panos Prevedouros' statements were heavily slanted by political aspects against political rival, I would generally take his statements about rail more seriously. That said, I would agree that the reality is like closer to $7B than $3B. Not only based on doubt about statements that HART has made in the past, but rumblings in the local engineering and construction industry. However, I am not as current as I once was, so who knows.
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I think it will eventually be completed because in ten years when there's gridlock on the highways, people will ask why don't we complete the rail???
The rail might not work for most people initially but after several years, people will change their lives to make it easier by either moving or by choosing a job that is easier to use.
Well, that was the thought and expectation for Kapolei as the second city. Since I moved back into town almost 10 years ago, I haven't kept up with changes in that regard, but it is my understanding that while a good amount of people did make life changes that included finding employment out west side and living out west side, that for every person who made that change, more did the opposite and more than made up for the "benefit" of those who did make the life change that would in theory provide relief in traffic congestion.
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It could cost more or stop half way in kalihi and never continue again. At this point if we stop if will never finish. The bad taste is in our mouths if we don't see the good in this we will be stuck in the past and use cars for transport for our ever growing population. The rail is change. What i hope to get from this is after its finish and is successful we can move on to other projects and with the knowledge of our current mistakes we make changes and do it correctly. Just like trumps wall, if its not funded soon it will probably never get funded. Some things need to be finished sooner rather than later cause the enthusiasm diminishes with time.
You don't teach politicians in office accountability by giving them 2-3 times what they projected to complete projects. You do it by stopping projects that can not deliver the benefit needed to justify the cost. In the future, they'll try to be more open and honest with their cost/benefit analysis, and not assume they will get WHATEVER IT TAKES to finish a poorly planned and managed project.
We get these kinds of projects because that's what always happens. We need to stop with the "business as usual" model and move toward a "do it right or we shut you down" model.
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With Oahu real estate prices going up every month, wait till they start buying the urban Honolulu properties needed to run the rail. I see over $1B in land acquisition costs alone.
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With Oahu real estate prices going up every month, wait till they start buying the urban Honolulu properties needed to run the rail. I see over $1B in land acquisition costs alone.
Don't forget to add in the cost of paying off "Hawaiian Sacred Ground" protestors so they don't stage another Mauna Kea temper tantrum. :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
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With Oahu real estate prices going up every month, wait till they start buying the urban Honolulu properties needed to run the rail. I see over $1B in land acquisition costs alone.
This is why we need to do it now, not later.
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We get these kinds of projects because that's what always happens. We need to stop with the "business as usual" model and move toward a "do it right or we shut you down" model.
Yes cause government shutdowns are good and the government just moves too fast.... :crazy:
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Yes cause government shutdowns are good and the government just moves too fast.... :crazy:
Do you even read the comments you reply to, or just paste Liberal talking points?
Pathetic. :sleeping:
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Once everyone is buying a significantly higher percentage of stuff online (delivered by drones) instead of at brick and mortar stores (as predicted with significant consequences by several "authorities"), other work done more via electronic communication, and we have flying cars, it'll all be mute. In the meantime politicians will continue to line their and their friends, cronies, and relatives pockets with all the taxpayer cash they can by whatever means. I still say: There is no end to it.
Agree. If you want to figure out what the new technology will be, figure out what we spend the most time and money on. Commuting is a huge time suck, not to mention commercial airlines. We might have to plug ourselves into the Matrix to solve that. I'm not too worried about the robot overlords taking over because by then no one will notice or care. At least we're not stuck in traffic all day.
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Do you even read the comments you reply to, or just paste Liberal talking points?
Pathetic. :sleeping:
"do it right or we shut you down" model.
Do you even read what you type?
Let me elaborate that for your little mind. When two sides don't agree on what is right and refuse to back down, we get the government shutdown. And I was being facetious about how quickly our government does things so if you want them to do it even more "perfect" with more sides getting everything they want. Nothing will get done, ever.
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"do it right or we shut you down" model.
Do you even read what you type?
Let me elaborate that for your little mind. When two sides don't agree on what is right and refuse to back down, we get the government shutdown. And I was being facetious about how quickly our government does things so if you want them to do it even more "perfect" with more sides getting everything they want. Nothing will get done, ever.
Shut down THE PROJECT, not THE GOVERNMENT.
Dimwit.
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Shut down THE PROJECT, not THE GOVERNMENT.
Dimwit.
But your logic applies to all projects. That same mentality would apply to budget and in the end the government would be even less cohesive. It has literally already happened before because the two sides couldn't agree on a budget.
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But your logic applies to all projects. That same mentality would apply to budget and in the end the government would be even less cohesive. It has literally already happened before because the two sides couldn't agree on a budget.
It applies to all projects that don't meet stated objectives and cost/benefit goals.
If that describes all projects, then our government needs to do a better (more honest) job at estimating things that involve our tax dollars. As it stands, they know they can lie to get the project approved, and then keep taking more and more money and time because "that's how we always do it".
You can't get anyone to change if you have zero accountability.
Dimwit.
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But your logic applies to all projects. That same mentality would apply to budget and in the end the government would be even less cohesive. It has literally already happened before because the two sides couldn't agree on a budget.
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It applies to all projects that don't meet stated objectives and cost/benefit goals.
If that describes all projects, then our government needs to do a better (more honest) job at estimating things that involve our tax dollars. As it stands, they know they can lie to get the project approved, and then keep taking more and more money and time because "that's how we always do it".
You can't get anyone to change if you have zero accountability.
Dimwit.
You do realize that when you say "dimwit", you negate everything you said before? Otherwise, I do agree with what you said because it's much harder to take a tax or fee away once the government puts it into place.
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You do realize that when you say "dimwit", you negate everything you said before? Otherwise, I do agree with what you said because it's much harder to take a tax or fee away once the government puts it into place.
Shhhhh! I'm trolling the troll...... :rofl:
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Shhhhh! I'm trolling the troll...... :rofl:
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I'll be glad to hold him down for you!
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It applies to all projects that don't meet stated objectives and cost/benefit goals.
If that describes all projects, then our government needs to do a better (more honest) job at estimating things that involve our tax dollars. As it stands, they know they can lie to get the project approved, and then keep taking more and more money and time because "that's how we always do it".
You can't get anyone to change if you have zero accountability.
Dimwit.
Being in the .gov side I just want to add that there are some SUPER aggressive, shady, smart, whatever contractors out there. As a former consulting design engineer, it as common place to have contractors bid low and then change order, run excuses for more time, etc to get the project and then get their money back. It's just risen to a WHOLE new level now in the construction industry. That and a situation were the litigation side tends to favor the contractor, so that only emboldens the contractor even more to try stuff. On top of that, are government reps agreeing to contractor calls for additional compensation, time, etc in order go avoid conflict/litigation. On a current job, where the contractor put in for a huge change for additional and I felt that the contract documents were clear that the contract documents included the work that they contractor was claiming. The legal counsel and construction manager both felt that we would lose in litigation, so they just rolled over and negotiated a change. Well, that also opened up the door to a bunch of other requests for change. . .
Anyways, NOT AT ALL defending the government side in rail, but I have also heard that the contractor(s) have been pressing for and getting a bunch of changes that I wouldn't see warranted. This is especially when you have big mainland JVs or LLCs coming in that don't care if they burn bridges.
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I'll be glad to hold him down for you!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Checked out the rail this past weekend and as a structural engineer, I have to say that the structures are pretty damn impressive. I used to design highway bridges similar to sections of H3 and they aren't easy. Especially when you have large and super heavy sections that need to be placed with surprisingly fine tolerance levels. I can't imagine the amount of hours that were spent designing those structures.
Before I left private practice, I was involved in the design of the rail maintenance yard near LCC and that is pretty much done, if not all the way done. Tough to tell as I drove by on Farrington Hwy.
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Being in the .gov side I just want to add that there are some SUPER aggressive, shady, smart, whatever contractors out there. As a former consulting design engineer, it as common place to have contractors bid low and then change order, run excuses for more time, etc to get the project and then get their money back. It's just risen to a WHOLE new level now in the construction industry. That and a situation were the litigation side tends to favor the contractor, so that only emboldens the contractor even more to try stuff. On top of that, are government reps agreeing to contractor calls for additional compensation, time, etc in order go avoid conflict/litigation. On a current job, where the contractor put in for a huge change for additional and I felt that the contract documents were clear that the contract documents included the work that they contractor was claiming. The legal counsel and construction manager both felt that we would lose in litigation, so they just rolled over and negotiated a change. Well, that also opened up the door to a bunch of other requests for change. . .
Anyways, NOT AT ALL defending the government side in rail, but I have also heard that the contractor(s) have been pressing for and getting a bunch of changes that I wouldn't see warranted. This is especially when you have big mainland JVs or LLCs coming in that don't care if they burn bridges.
Contractor "abuse" of the customer is especially rampant in Hawaii. I mean, for construction, who else are you going to get? And if the union has anything to say, one contractor isn't about to steal a government construction gig from another "brother" contractor over a dispute. They stick together, so next time the customer can't switch construction crews mid-project.
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Contractor "abuse" of the customer is especially rampant in Hawaii. I mean, for construction, who else are you going to get? And if the union has anything to say, one contractor isn't about to steal a government construction gig from another "brother" contractor over a dispute. They stick together, so next time the customer can't switch construction crews mid-project.
The example that I gave was actually in Guam. That trend is actually happening all over. Not just Hawaii.
On the projects that work on, the competition is fierce. As are the protests after the fact when they lose. They may be colluding, but I don't see obvious signs of it in the projects that I've worked one. Especially when the parent companies are from all over.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It applies to all projects that don't meet stated objectives and cost/benefit goals.
If that describes all projects, then our government needs to do a better (more honest) job at estimating things that involve our tax dollars. As it stands, they know they can lie to get the project approved, and then keep taking more and more money and time because "that's how we always do it".
You can't get anyone to change if you have zero accountability.
Dimwit.
So...social security, medicare, the "wall", all the wars and millions of other key government programs should all be stopped. Am I getting this right? All those I listed went far past their scope and budget. Kill everything that isn't perfect is the flapp plan.
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So...social security, medicare, the "wall", all the wars and millions of other key government programs should all be stopped. Am I getting this right? All those I listed went far past their scope and budget. Kill everything that isn't perfect is the flapp plan.
Is that what I said?
I hate Dimwits.
You mentioned ZERO public works projects. Rail, water, sewer, roads, parks, .... These are projects that eat us tax payers alive, and all because of incompetence, mismanagement, and fraud/waste/abuse.
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Great Forbes (Left Leaning) article about LA's rail system (Which I also worked on) after it has been built and running for many years now.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2016/03/14/mass-transit-expansion-goes-off-the-rails-in-many-u-s-cities/#6645382e66b5
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Ahh, but Hawaii's rail system will prove the article wrong. It is going to be great because the Mayor and his cronies said so 5 years ago.
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Ahh, but Hawaii's rail system will prove the article wrong. It is going to be great because the Mayor and his cronies said so 5 years ago.
It boggles my mind how these Democrats insult Trump for all his speeches (It'll be the biggest and best, and no one will ever make a better one), when that's ALL we hear from the Democrat leadership here. The rail was going to create jobs, stimulate business, make tourists and commuters happy, reduce traffic congestion, etc, etc. And it was all going to be super cheap, because of the stagnant economy pushing prices down, and low interest rates, and federal funding.
Yeah, people have earplugs in when it's their "side" talking...
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Ahh, but Hawaii's rail system will prove the article wrong. It is going to be great because the Mayor and his cronies said so 5 years ago.
I believe everything Mufi told me.
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Here is the interview with the new interin CEO of HART:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/hawaii/articles/2017-05-18/honolulu-rail-officials-debate-funding-feds-want-details
"Murthy and the rail project's board discussed how the project will run out of money in January without an influx of cash."
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Here is the interview with the new interin CEO of HART:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/hawaii/articles/2017-05-18/honolulu-rail-officials-debate-funding-feds-want-details
"Murthy and the rail project's board discussed how the project will run out of money in January without an influx of cash."
I heard something about the board is pursuing City issued bonds. Something like $350 Mil that will extend the "run out of money" date to summer 2018. So $350 Mil extends the project 6 months? :grrr:
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I heard something about the board is pursuing City issued bonds. Something like $350 Mil that will extend the "run out of money" date to summer 2018. So $350 Mil extends the project 6 months? :grrr:
I can imagine what will happen to our credit rating if we start issuing bonds indiscriminately like that. We will just keep on issuing them until the project is complete. If that doesn't bankrupt us it will certainly put an extreme heavy burden on the present taxpayers and their children in the future and cause our credit rating to drop causing us to issue bonds at higher rates. This may actually be a worse idea than the increase in property taxes. :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
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I can imagine what will happen to our credit rating if we start issuing bonds indiscriminately like that. We will just keep on issuing them until the project is complete. If that doesn't bankrupt us it will certainly put an extreme heavy burden on the present taxpayers and their children in the future and cause our credit rating to drop causing us to issue bonds at higher rates. This may actually be a worse idea than the increase in property taxes. :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
Don't worry, that's not a problem for the "progressives". They have even more extensive plans to confiscate increasing percentages of the wealth/income earned by people with jobs in order to redistribute to the "needy", which includes the contractors and other businesses who generously donate to their campaigns. For them bankruptcy (indicating "the failure of capitalism") is a sign that the "revolution" is working (see: Venezuela). As said (simplified version) by Margaret Thatcher: "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money". If they cared about "ordinary" people, this would be a problem. They don't. They have another, far more "important", agenda.
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And not just the progressives... the (few) Republicans are in on it too...
Leeward GOP silence over rail missteps is deafening
Here's the Hawaii Free Press commentary on the original article. (HFP article contains links to original article and several others related...7th article down: http://hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesDailyNews/tabid/65/ID/19804/June-11-2017-News-Read.aspx):
Shapiro: …Rep. Bob McDermott, one of five Republican state legislators and a candidate for governor next year, ripped Gov. David Ige for not immediately calling a special legislative session to ram through another rail excise tax extension for a project that’s nearly $5 billion over budget and growing.
He dismissed concerns of House Democrats about indefinitely extending a tax that was promised to last only 15 years by saying, “We’re already paying it, and the sky isn’t falling.” …
Now there’s a rock-ribbed Republican tax philosophy.
(Ex-Republican) City Councilwoman Kymberly Pine, the only Republican on the Council and a future mayoral aspirant, promised a year ago to present a plan to finish rail all the way to Ala Moana without further tax increases.
But there she was during the Legislature, prominent at Mayor Kirk Caldwell’s side, pressing for some $3 billion in new taxing authority for rail while soft-pedaling the gross mismanagement and broken promises….
It’s no surprise, or a problem, that McDermott and Pine support rail; they both represent West Oahu districts that benefit most from the train.
The problem is their lack of leadership you’d expect from an opposition party in demanding the city correct its clueless rail management and out-of-control spending.
McDermott’s essay in Honolulu Civil Beat pitching more taxes to finish rail didn’t have a single word calling for better cost efficiency.
Leeward lawmakers who have the most at stake should have protected rail by voicing the loudest demands for responsible cost management.
Instead, they kept mostly silent as missteps multiplied, enabling the city to avert needed course corrections. If rail fails, it’s on them.
The only current elected Republican to come down hard on rail accountability is Rep. Cynthia Thielen, who says extending the excise tax would “convert a disappointment into a disaster” and reward “reckless hubris and aggressive incompetence.”….….
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Rep. Cynthia Thielen talks with retired law professor Randall Roth about the rail system. Good summary of the absurdity of it all. Cost for average family of four: $25,000 (exclusive of the $200 million per year operating and renovation budget and based upon likely extremely high overestimate of actual ridership (the last rail project the "expert" for the Honoluly rail worked on had an actual ridership of 25% of the "expert's" projected ridership)).
The whole thing is completely insane and could only happen as a government project where they take people's money at the point of a gun.
https://youtu.be/Y5d7f31mZ9Q
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After watching the video interview, this rail project is even more F'd up than I imagined. I am glad I no longer live on Oahu. I feel sorry for my many friends on the Windward side where I used to live. They will get no benefit but still have to bear the cost.
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I knew it.
As I thought all along.
I'd be comfortable knowing everyone will be taking the rail so that I can have the freeways to myself...
I wonder how much people think like I do...
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/35731875/rail-critics-raise-transparency-concerns-at-hart-board-meeting (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/35731875/rail-critics-raise-transparency-concerns-at-hart-board-meeting)
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Honolulu rail clearly a fiasco
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/19892/Honolulu-rail-clearly-a-fiasco.aspx
by Mark Coleman, Grassroot Institute, June 27, 2017
There so many good reasons to be skeptical about Honolulu’s still-under-construction rail project that it’s surprising the City and County of Honolulu was even able to get this wildly over-budget undertaking off the drawing table.
What are some of those reasons?
[Long list follows, with references.]
Video interview with the author:
http://hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/20007/Grassroot-Special-Session-Should-Order-Rail-Audit.aspx
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I drove by the site of the previous precast yard for the guide rail segments yesterday. The precast yard has been completely dismantled and removed from the site. It took the previous contractor over a year to build the precast yard, concrete plant and quality control lab and man everything. It took several more months to organize and develop the methodologies to make it run it at optimum speed and efficiently. I don't know if the new contractor has a different plan that can ramp up faster but assuming they don't it will be another year or two before we begin to see anything significant happen on the second half of the rail. The longer it takes the more it costs.
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Every time I read or hear about rail problems I laugh. Been laughing a lot lately. Hehehe.
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Here is another article claiming we have the money to pay for rail without having to raise taxes...
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/20017/16B-Available-to-Pay-for-Rail--Without-Raising-Taxes.aspx?utm_source=July+30%2C+2017+News+from+Hawaii+Free+Press&utm_campaign=July+30%2C+2017+Email+&utm_medium=email
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Here is another article claiming we have the money to pay for rail without having to raise taxes...
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/20017/16B-Available-to-Pay-for-Rail--Without-Raising-Taxes.aspx?utm_source=July+30%2C+2017+News+from+Hawaii+Free+Press&utm_campaign=July+30%2C+2017+Email+&utm_medium=email
Was watching a show on Netflix this past weekend while I was waiting for some work to get done on my car. It's called Scam City, where this guy goes around the world and "researches" the various scams at popular tourist destinations. Anyways, he often tries to get his money back after getting scammed. Yeah, that usually works out well. :P
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Was watching a show on Netflix this past weekend while I was waiting for some work to get done on my car. It's called Scam City, where this guy goes around the world and "researches" the various scams at popular tourist destinations. Anyways, he often tries to get his money back after getting scammed. Yeah, that usually works out well. :P
So what your saying is that Honolulu's new nickname is "Scam City".
True dat.
Seriously.
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So what your saying is that Honolulu's new nickname is "Scam City".
True dat.
Seriously.
Unfortunately, yeah. . . :( >:(
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Unfortunately, yeah. . . :( >:(
Don't look so sad DRCK, you know it could be worse...
We could be in the same position as Chicago or Detroit!!! :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:
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Don't look so sad DRCK, you know it could be worse...
We could be in the same position as Chicago or Detroit!!! :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:
Chicago dogs. . . Mmmmm!!! ;D
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Chicago dogs. . . Mmmmm!!! ;D
Darn you making me hungry! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Don't look so sad DRCK, you know it could be worse...
We could be in the same position as Chicago or Detroit!!! :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:
Permit not required to own,carry and discharge a firearm at others in public?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Ooops, that was bad. :oops:
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Darn you making me hungry! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Ahhh. . . I'm still on a diet now, so salad and fruit for lunch. . .
Maybe with bringing home lunch, I can save enough to pay for rail. ;D
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*ssholes. FOAD.
Lawmakers Plan for Neighbor Islands to Pay for Rail
http://hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/20084/Full-Text-Lawmaker-Leaks-Plan-to-Make-Sister-Isles-Pay-for-Rail--Public-Hearing-Set.aspx
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*ssholes. FOAD.
Lawmakers Plan for Neighbor Islands to Pay for Rail
http://hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/20084/Full-Text-Lawmaker-Leaks-Plan-to-Make-Sister-Isles-Pay-for-Rail--Public-Hearing-Set.aspx
You had to know they would try. They don't have the taxes necessary to even run the thing once its built. Look for more attempts to have the rest of the state pay for this debacle.
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You had to know they would try. They don't have the taxes necessary to even run the thing once its built. Look for more attempts to have the rest of the state pay for this debacle.
Heard them discussing this on NPR (or maybe it was on HNN) this morning. Something about how the rail will boost overall tourism to Hawaii and that will translate to more visitors to neighbor islands. But that's also not quite how funds are distributed.
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Heard them discussing this on NPR (or maybe it was on HNN) this morning. Something about how the rail will boost overall tourism to Hawaii and that will translate to more visitors to neighbor islands. But that's also not quite how funds are distributed.
I was unaware people travel to vacation spots just to ride public transportation. Japanese visitors already get plenty of that in their country. :wacko:
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Heard them discussing this on NPR (or maybe it was on HNN) this morning. Something about how the rail will boost overall tourism to Hawaii and that will translate to more visitors to neighbor islands. But that's also not quite how funds are distributed.
Who the hell is going to fly 2,500 miles or more just to ride/see a rail system that is only 20 miles long? It's not even good for sightseeing. It is more likely they will go to Disneyland to ride the monorail. Our rail system is not an amusement park ride.
More lies.
Would anyone here fly all the way to Oakland just to ride BART? Or even better fly all the way to NYC just to ride the subway?
Stupid asses.
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Who the hell is going to fly 2,500 miles or more just to ride/see a rail system that is only 20 miles long? It's not even good for sightseeing. It is more likely they will go to Disneyland to ride the monorail. Our rail system is not an amusement park ride.
More lies.
Would anyone here fly all the way to Oakland just to ride BART? Or even better fly all the way to NYC just to ride the subway?
Stupid asses.
To be clear (just in case and not really for you), I was more laughing at the discussion than anything else.
I think they were trying to justify or rationalize via some sort of trickle effect. Rail makes transportation more efficient, people are happier, spend more money, then attract more development, then better resorts, etc.
I admit that I did seek a tour out in Japan that included the Shinkansen (bullet train). And that was just because I had previous experience related to the bullet train, so I wanted to ride on it. Though I wouldn't have rode the Shinkansen just to ride it. It was on the return trip from a tour to Mt. Fuji.
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Local BI liberal POS rag had this today. Are they so insane as to try this shit?
http://westhawaiitoday.com/news/local-news/looking-neighbor-islands-rail-money (http://westhawaiitoday.com/news/local-news/looking-neighbor-islands-rail-money)
IIRC, the people of Oahu did not want this crap, and now they want to tax other islands?
What next, have us subsidize the health care for Honolulu homeless?
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What next, have us subsidize the health care for Honolulu homeless?
No need subsidize. We'll just send 'em over to you!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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What next, have us subsidize the health care for Honolulu homeless?
I'm pretty sure if you pay any state or federal taxes you are already doing that. Millions of dollars a year in uncompensated and Medicaid use by the homeless at just a few Oahu hospitals, etc.
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News said there are 17,000 Micronesian people getting medical services in Hawaii, mandated by Federal law and Hawaii not being reimbursed by the Feds. Millions of dollars and Ige and the Dumocrats want more people by making Hawaii a sanctuary. The extent of their stupidity is mind boggling.
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News said there are 17,000 Micronesian people getting medical services in Hawaii, mandated by Federal law and Hawaii not being reimbursed by the Feds. Millions of dollars and Ige and the Dumocrats want more people by making Hawaii a sanctuary. The extent of their stupidity is mind boggling.
wow. that's some macro-level numbers
I'm guessing the main reason for trying to be a sanctuary city is to defy President Trump. The Democrats of this State offer no solutions just anti-Trump conjecture. That's all. What pisses me off is that that is not what my tax dollars pay for. I don't want a whiney kid in Congress. I want solutions no matter how you feel about the other party. Go to work
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17,000? I thought it was way more than that. I'll have to see if a friend that works at IHS has numbers.
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That was the number mentioned by Howard Dicus on HNN yesterday morning.
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The legislative special session committee hearing on RAIL (basically the question is: "How are we going to tax these poor slob citizens to death in a way that they won't tar and feather us for lying to them about the rail project all these years while lining the pockets of our cronies?") will be this coming Monday morning August 14, at 10 AM. Given the 24 hour prior to the hearing deadline for submitting testimony, RIGHT NOW might be a good time to do it if you haven't already.
Testimony must be submitted 24 hours prior to the start of the hearing. Testimony must be submitted via email to the Senate Committee of Transportation and Energy at: TRETestimony@capitol.hawaii.gov
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I do not support rail, and never have supported the building of rail. I knew from the start that this would be a scam for the people of this island, it would have never been any solution for traffic, and it would inevitably go WAY over budget.
DO NOT raise taxes for this disaster of a project.
I DO NOT wish to pay for this criminal enterprise, and I DO NOT want my children, grandchildren, nor great grandchildren paying for this for the rest of time.
DO NOT TAX FOR RAIL
Heavies
VOTER
Ewa Beach, Hawaii
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it's sad to see how our elected officials could care less about what we think :grrr:
http://www.kitv.com/story/36215158/governor-and-lawmakers-react-to-new-rail-funding-ideas (http://www.kitv.com/story/36215158/governor-and-lawmakers-react-to-new-rail-funding-ideas)
"Will all the neighbor islands going to be happy, probably not. Will the hotel industry be happy, probably not. Are taxpayers happy the 1 or 2 percent extended another three years, probably not," Ron Kouchi, senate President said.
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Was talking about this and how much a friend and I hate politics. They (well vast majority) only seem to serve themselves or whatever benefits them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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it's sad to see how our elected officials could care less about what we think :grrr:
http://www.kitv.com/story/36215158/governor-and-lawmakers-react-to-new-rail-funding-ideas (http://www.kitv.com/story/36215158/governor-and-lawmakers-react-to-new-rail-funding-ideas)
"Will all the neighbor islands going to be happy, probably not. Will the hotel industry be happy, probably not. Are taxpayers happy the 1 or 2 percent extended another three years, probably not," Ron Kouchi, senate President said.
Note the Schatz quote: "This was not easy and it is not done," Sen. Brian Schatz said.
He's previewing the NEXT urgent emergency legislative super special hearings to raise even more money in the near future, because, well, as we'll be told shortly "We just need more money... sorry about that. Oh, and just in case we didn't mention it, and you didn't know, fuck you."
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Submit testimony by 3 PM TODAY (Sunday, August 27, 2017).
From the Republican Party email:
The Senate Committee on Ways and Means has announced their hearing for this coming Monday, August 28th, the time was originally set for 11am, however it has been changed to 3:00 pm!
There was also a change to the bill number; originally SB1 changed (good idea for those of you who remember SB1 (Hawaii Marriage Equality Act of 2013)) to SB4 (Relating to Government). [http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indivSS.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=4&year=2017a to see .gov info]. Additionally SB4 only deals with the GET extension (Bill text here), which most likely means the House will propose another bill to address the TAT increase and distribution. SB4 key points include:
Establishes Mass Transit Special Fund
State skim cut from 10% to 1%.
GET extended to 2030.
Calls for an annual audit by the State Auditor.
HART must provide a Certification Statement to the State Comptroller before release of any funds.
Four new full time hires by the State Finance Director.
Gives State Comptroller authority to contract with outside agencies to effectuate the purpose of SB4.
Testimony for the Senate Committee on Ways and Means hearing may be submitted up to 24 hours prior to the start of the hearing (which would be by 3:00pm tomorrow Sunday, August 27th). Persons wishing to testify should submit testimony in one of the following ways:
Email:
WAM-WrittenOnly@capitol.hawaii.gov if you are ONLY submitting written comments and will NOT be testifying in person;
WAM-InPerson@capitol.hawaii.gov if you are ALSO going to testify at the hearing in person;
In person: Deliver 1 copy of your testimony to the committee clerk, Room 208, State Capitol.
Via Fax: Testimony may be faxed if less than 5 pages in length, to 586-6951 or 1-800-586-6659 (toll free for neighbor islands).
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Submit testimony by 3 PM TODAY (Sunday, August 27, 2017).
From the Republican Party email:
The Senate Committee on Ways and Means has announced their hearing for this coming Monday, August 28th, the time was originally set for 11am, however it has been changed to 3:00 pm!
There was also a change to the bill number; originally SB1 changed (good idea for those of you who remember SB1 (Hawaii Marriage Equality Act of 2013)) to SB4 (Relating to Government). [http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indivSS.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=4&year=2017a to see .gov info]. Additionally SB4 only deals with the GET extension (Bill text here), which most likely means the House will propose another bill to address the TAT increase and distribution. SB4 key points include:
Establishes Mass Transit Special Fund
State skim cut from 10% to 1%.
GET extended to 2030.
Calls for an annual audit by the State Auditor.
HART must provide a Certification Statement to the State Comptroller before release of any funds.
Four new full time hires by the State Finance Director.
Gives State Comptroller authority to contract with outside agencies to effectuate the purpose of SB4.
Testimony for the Senate Committee on Ways and Means hearing may be submitted up to 24 hours prior to the start of the hearing (which would be by 3:00pm tomorrow Sunday, August 27th). Persons wishing to testify should submit testimony in one of the following ways:
Email:
WAM-WrittenOnly@capitol.hawaii.gov if you are ONLY submitting written comments and will NOT be testifying in person;
WAM-InPerson@capitol.hawaii.gov if you are ALSO going to testify at the hearing in person;
In person: Deliver 1 copy of your testimony to the committee clerk, Room 208, State Capitol.
Via Fax: Testimony may be faxed if less than 5 pages in length, to 586-6951 or 1-800-586-6659 (toll free for neighbor islands).
Done and shared
I DO NOT support any tax increase, extention, nor further funding for the failed and corrupt rail project.
Furthermore, I DEMAND an investigation on this debacle, and all parties involved prosecuted, to the fullest extent of the law, for criminal fraud of the taxpaying citizens of the city and county, and this state.
This project was a scam from the start, of NO practical use for the citizens of this city, and a complete fraudulent waste of tax dollars.
(Heavies)
Ewa Beach
Taxpayer and VOTER
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I wonder if ANY of these politicians would ride the rail to commute.
This is what happens when people don't vote.
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Let's talk about fixing it once some high level people are behind bars.
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I wonder if ANY of these politicians would ride the rail to commute.
This is what happens when people don't vote.
They won't because the train doesn't go to Hawaii Kai, Kailua, and Lanikai.
Let's talk about fixing it once some high level people are behind bars.
See, we can and do agree on some things. ;D ;) :shaka:
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Let's talk about fixing it once some high level people are behind bars.
I predict that "some high level people" will be "behind bars" the same year that permitless open and concealed carry go into effect in Hawaii.
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I predict that "some high level people" will be "behind bars" the same year that permitless open and concealed carry go into effect in Hawaii.
Is that when global warming kicks in?
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For those on Oahu would might want to make a public statement today:
(https://gallery.mailchimp.com/cce7d2ef8148da7f647841041/_compresseds/51eb6621-59bc-4a08-b453-7221dd6f96e2.jpg)
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Heard a report this morning saying something about two members of the finance (at least I think it was) committee in the State House that were removed over the weekend. Just in time for the 5 day special session to "solve rail" funding. No surprise that these two were reported to be pretty vocal with their opposition to rail and then a comment from the committee that was something about negotiations to get the "bail out" plan to where it is today took a lot of negotiating and changes would be too difficult at this time. Yeah, that doesn't sound like more shady back room deals.
I still wonder how they are going to justify all of this to the FTA and get (continued) funding.
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And here's how all but one of the Big Island Reps (the Senators all oppose) want to screw us here on the Big Island to pay for that Oahu crony-capitalist wasteful and fraudulent mismanaged boondoggle stating various totally lame excuses (I wrote them all expressing my "displeasure"):
http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/local-news/who-pays-price-many-big-island-not-board-fund-rail-honolulu
Who pays the price? Many on Big Island not on board to fund rail for Honolulu
A bill requiring the neighbor islands to help bail out Honolulu’s overbudget rail project is roundly opposed by Hawaii County officials, the chambers of commerce, hotel industry, many Big Island residents and all four of the island’s state senators.
Yet, all but one of the county’s seven members in the state House are likely to vote for the bill, a special session compromise between the House and Senate after negotiations broke down in the tumultuous last days of the regular legislative session that saw the ouster of the House speaker and the appointment of a new Senate Ways and Means Committee chairwoman.
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May be the ones who will continue to profit from this debacle are paying certain crooked politicians under the table to support rail.
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This is a perfect opportunity for Republicans to take some seats
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Okay, they just put up the "testimony" (330 pages of it): http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/splsession2017a/SB4_TESTIMONY_WAM_08-28-17.pdf
I "had" to skim through all 330 pages and tally it up because I'm interested, curious, concerned, okay, obsessed with documenting how the "public servants"/government of the people, by the people, and for the people routinely ignores the people and instead act in their own personal interest. I know, hard to believe, huh? [The "public servants" acting in their own interest, not the "obsessed" part...]
Organizations (HART (duh!), other government agencies, unions, Democratic Party, LGBTQ Democratic Caucus) FOR: 18 (eighteen)
Organizations (mostly hotels) OPPOSED: 15 (fifteen)
And now for the "little people" (i.e. you and me)...
FOR: 8 (eight)
OPPOSED: 53 (fifty-three)
That's 6.6 TIMES as many ordinary citizens opposed to favoring...
I left out several submissions, as it wasn't clear if they supported or opposed the measure.
I didn't really have to read very much of many of the letters, especially the opposed, as they frequently started off with something like "How stupid is government, anyway?"...pretty sure where that was going... and it did.
Also the HART document submitted as testimony was 164 pages, so that was half to the total pages, and, no, I didn't read that crap.
For me, the only question will be how close to unanimous will this bill pass...
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Just announced that this bill will be before the House Financial and Transportation committees on Wednesday, August 30, at 1:30 PM.
People thus have 22 hours remaining (until 1:30 PM on Tuesday August 29) to submit testimony.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/splsession2017a/Hearing_TRN-FIN_08-30-17_.pdf
Edited to add addresses to submit testimony (for people like me who didn't see the "notice" that the website doesn't work for anything happening in the "special session" unless you notice and click on the "special session information" link):
FINtestimony@capitol.hawaii.gov TRNtestimony@capitol.hawaii.gov
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Somewhat to my surprise, the vote was not unanimous in favor of the rail tax increases and extensions. The Big Island senators followed thru on their stated opposition.
8/28/2017 S The committee(s) on WAM recommend(s) that the measure be PASSED, UNAMENDED. The votes in WAM were as follows: 6 Aye(s); Senator(s) Dela Cruz, Keith-Agaran, Galuteria, Kidani, Shimabukuro, Wakai; Aye(s) with reservations: none; 5 No(es): English, Harimoto, Inouye, Kahele, Riviere; and 0 Excused: none.
8/29/2017 S Reported from WAM (Stand. Com. Rep. No. 3) with recommendation of passage on Second Reading and placement on the calendar for Third Reading.
8/29/2017 S Report adopted; Passed Second Reading with Senators Green, Harimoto, Inouye, Kahele, Riviere, Ruderman and Thielen voting "No".
So it passed the committee 6 to 5. Imagine the outcome if there were less than 100% Democrats in the senate... like maybe even one Republican (not a RINO)... of course he would have been removed from the committee the day before the hearing, just like the two Reps who oppose the new rail funding were from the House committee...
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Today's (Wednesday August 30, 2017) update.
All the committees have now passed a recommendation that SB4 be passed unamended. Thus it is very likely it will pass both the full senate and house as well, unless there are some secret backroom meetings going on... and I doubt anyone could possibly overcome the city and county of Honolulu, the state bureaucracy and all the unions, etc. to dissuade our government from taxing us more and more for longer and longer to pay for the rail boondoggle. I'd wager that there will never be a forensic audit that might have revealed fraud, waste and abuse, and that when the thing gets running (if it ever does) it will be plagued by mechanical problems and that the maintenance costs and operational costs will far exceed the current estimates and that more money will need to be extricated from taxpayers to keep it running. Oh, and the ridership will be far less than predicted and traffic won't be relieved at all. Other than that, I'd say it's a great use of $13 BILLION (or more likely $16 OR $20 BILLION in the long run...).
8/30/2017 S Passed Third Reading. Ayes, 16; Aye(s) with reservations: none. Noes, 9 (Senator(s) Baker, English, Green, Harimoto, Inouye, Kahele, Riviere, Ruderman, L. Thielen). Excused, 0 (none). Transmitted to House.
8/30/2017 H Received from Senate (Sen. Com. No. 3).
8/30/2017 H Passed First Reading.
8/30/2017 H Referred to TRN/FIN, referral sheet 1.
8/30/2017 H The committee on TRN recommends that the measure be PASSED, UNAMENDED. The votes were as follows: 3 Ayes: Representative(s) Aquino, Nakamura, McDermott; 1 Aye with reservations: San Buenaventura; 2 Noes: Quinlan, Brower; and 1 Excused: Hashem.
8/30/2017 H The committee on FIN recommend that the measure be PASSED, UNAMENDED. The votes were as follows: 8 Ayes: Representative(s) Luke, Cullen, Gates, Holt, Keohokalole, LoPresti, Nakamura, Yamashita; Ayes with reservations: none; 6 Noes: Cachola, DeCoite, Kobayashi, Lowen, Tupola, Ward; and 1 Excused: Representative(s) Fukumoto.
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And the "temporary" .5% GET will never go away. They will either make it permanent or keep extending it for 10 or 15 years at a time. Rail costs WILL exceed $10B. I will bet everything I own on it.
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Yesterday's update. Full House votes 38-8 to saddle their constituents (on all islands) with years of higher taxes in order to pay for obvious (probably corrupt and fraudulent) Oahu boondoggle. They will all be re-elected next election, mostly by ridiculously huge margins. Lucky we live Hawaii.
8/31/2017 H Reported from TRN/FIN (Stand. Com. Rep. No. 3), recommending passage on Second Reading and placement on the calendar for Third Reading.
8/31/2017 H Passed Second Reading; placed on the calendar for Third Reading with Representative(s) Creagan, Evans, McKelvey, Onishi, Oshiro, San Buenaventura voting aye with reservations (6); Representative(s) Brower, Choy, Lowen, Quinlan, Thielen, Todd, Tupola, Ward voting no (eight) and Representative(s) Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, McDermott, Nishimoto excused (5).
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Yesterday's update. Full House votes 38-8 to saddle their constituents (on all islands) with years of higher taxes in order to pay for obvious (probably corrupt and fraudulent) Oahu boondoggle. They will all be re-elected next election, mostly by ridiculously huge margins. Lucky we live Hawaii.
8/31/2017 H Reported from TRN/FIN (Stand. Com. Rep. No. 3), recommending passage on Second Reading and placement on the calendar for Third Reading.
8/31/2017 H Passed Second Reading; placed on the calendar for Third Reading with Representative(s) Creagan, Evans, McKelvey, Onishi, Oshiro, San Buenaventura voting aye with reservations (6); Representative(s) Brower, Choy, Lowen, Quinlan, Thielen, Todd, Tupola, Ward voting no (8) and Representative(s) Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, McDermott, Nishimoto excused (5).
Maybe my math is off, but how did is "pass" second reading with more nos than ayes?
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Maybe my math is off, but how did is "pass" second reading with more nos than ayes?
it is assumed that everyone else not listed is an "aye" (without reservations)
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it is assumed that everyone else not listed is an "aye" (without reservations)
Gotcha.
I already saw that my state senator voted Aye the other day.
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Today's update. Success!! The "Special Session" is a total success!! SB4 passed the House today (31-15), sent back to Senate (where it already had passed), and they sent it on to the Governor. Gee, I wonder what Ige will decide to do? Be sure to tell your children and grandchildren who enacted that tax on them for their whole lives in order for a few people to ride a train on Oahu for a few years (maybe). No forensic audit was called for so no worries about ever finding out about all the graft, corruption and fraud involved in this most expensive public works transportation project in history! Yea! We did it!
There is really nothing to be gained or hoped for, but if you're like me and want to let Ige know just how much you despise the rail railroading of taxpayers:
https://governor.hawaii.gov/contact-us/contact-the-governor/
9/1/2017 H Floor amendment #1 failed following Voice vote: Noes, 2 (Representative(s) Luke, McKelvey). Excused, 4 (Representative(s) Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, Nishimoto).
9/1/2017 H Floor amendment #2 failed following Voice vote: Noes, 1 (Representative(s) Luke). Excused, 4 (Representative(s) Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, Nishimoto).
9/1/2017 H Floor amendment #3 failed following Voice vote: Noes, 3 (Representative(s) Luke, Yamane, Say). Excused, 4 (Representative(s) Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, Nishimoto).
9/1/2017 H Floor amendment #4 failed following Voice vote: Noes, 2 (Representative(s) Luke, Aquino). Excused, 4 (Representative(s) Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, Nishimoto).
9/1/2017 H Passed Third Reading with Representative(s) Kobayashi, Onishi, Oshiro, San Buenaventura, Woodson voting aye with reservations; Representative(s) Brower, Cachola, Creagan, DeCoite, Evans, Kong, Lowen, McKelvey, Quinlan, Say, Thielen, Todd, Tokioka, Tupola, Ward voting no (15) and Representative(s) Choy, Har, Hashem, Matsumoto, Nishimoto excused (5). Transmitted to Senate.
9/1/2017 S Received from House (Hse. Com. No. 3).
9/1/2017 S Enrolled to Governor.
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As suspected, even before the bill was finally passed yesterday, Caldwell was already "hinting" that he'd be back in the (near?) future asking for more money (higher taxes) to finish the rail. At least my senator, as virulently anti-firearm civil rights as he is (he's one of the most "progressive" members of the senate) got it right on this issue.
[Mayor Caldwell]: “I think the bill should pass. I don’t want the bill to die,” Caldwell said. “I’m hopeful that the numbers and assumptions that have been made in this bill will prove correct, and there will be adequate funding to build all the way to Ala Moana.”
He added that “should there be an issue regarding sufficiency of funds, I think it would be something that would have to be discussed at another day.”… (Translation: “I’ll be back.”)
“Among the greatest costs of rail, we can now add the severe degradation of the democratic process. By that I mean this bill was crafted behind closed doors and presented to us with the instructions that there will be no changes before we ever heard from the public,” said Sen. Russell Ruderman (D, Puna-Kau), who voted against SB 4. “We have a major new tax being enacted and we never heard from the public before we wrote the bill.”
http://hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesDailyNews/tabid/65/ID/20208/August-31-2017-News-Read.aspx
EDITED TO ADD: Easy to read summary of how senators voted and who among them is up for re-election in 2018:
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/20198/24B-Tax-Hike-How-They-Voted.aspx
$2.4B / 1.4M people = $1714 per person in tax hikes = $6,857 tax hike for a family of four. [Of course that's if everything were equally distributed...]
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Drain the lo'i !!!! :grrr:
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Wouldn't it be great if every sitting politician today doesn't get re-elected? But 95% of HI voters have short term memory loss. They will forget who voted for what by next month.
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I read this a couple of days ago but decided not to post it... but I just read it again and think people should know just how our governor is being a "public servant". I want this idiot to send me a list of five ways that I will be "strategically" benefited here in Puna by paying more taxes for the rail... I'll let you all know when I get an answer from Ige.
Senate Bill 4 now heads to the governor for his signature. Gov. David Ige released the following statement:
“I thank everyone who took the time to testify this week, including the leaders from the counties. The special session has not been easy, but the Legislature did not give up. I especially thank the Legislature for passing this compromise measure, which allows us to complete the rail line to Ala Moana. The entire state will benefit from this strategic investment. My cabinet members and I will be doing a final review as we do for all legislation, but I fully anticipate signing the bill before the Honolulu City Council meets on Tuesday.” ….
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Sometimes I wonder if they actually believe their own bullshit. It's either corruption or incompetence, or a little bit of both.
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Sometimes I wonder if they actually believe their own bullshit. It's either corruption or incompetence, or a little bit of both.
mostly corruption, a little bit of incompetence
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mostly corruption, a little bit of incompetence
Well, no worries. Once that forensic audit by an outside independent experienced firm is completed, all the corruption will be clear for all to see and the public will have the evidence they need to finally rebuke these lying criminals public servants... oh, wait, that amendment to SB4 from the super minority Republicans in the House (none in the Senate) for the forensic audit was defeated. Never mind. :crazy:
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This evening news Think About It segment said the so called 1% increase of the TAT is actually an 11% increase when you raise it from 9.5 to 10.5%. It also said, Does anyone really think that in the 8 years projected for rail to be completed that a new mayor will not approach a new legislature to ask for more money and blame the former mayor as to why more money is needed? Think about it. That is why I said I will bet everything I own that to complete rail to Ala Moana it will cost over $10B.
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Ige followed through on his pledge to sign SB4 today.
I have not received an answer from him yet about what "strategic benefits" I will receive here in Puna from the ludicrous boondoggle rail on Oahu, as he promised would be the case. He was probably too busy signing the bill and congratulating himself to respond. Note that Hanabusa will likely unseat him in the coming election so he will no longer be "responsible", and she won't be responsible because all the "bad stuff" with rail happened before she was governor (but AFTER she was no longer part of HART). In other words, it's someone else's fault, or better yet, no one at all's fault. No one will ever be held accountable for all the lies and abuses and fraud (See: Obama then: "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan you can keep your health care plan".Obama now: multimillionaire international jetsetter. Clinton: ditto. Etc.)
My rough guess at the final price tag just for construction (they'll need more additional funds for maintenance and operations), including debt servicing costs: 15-20 billion. Just you watch. They have nothing resembling the slightest bit of integrity.
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My rough guess at the final price tag just for construction (they'll need more additional funds for maintenance and operations), including debt servicing costs: 15-20 billion. Just you watch. They have nothing resembling the slightest bit of integrity.
$1B per mile. Hawaii will have set a new record for most expensive rail that will not be surpassed in my children's and maybe even my grandchildren's lifetime.
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#IAmNotRail
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Sound familiar?
California's bullet train (and biggest boondoggle) is over budget by billions
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/01/19/californias-bullet-train-and-biggest-boondoggle-overbudget-by-billions.html
Excerpt:
It’s billions of dollars over budget and seven years behind schedule, and appears to have no plausible way of living up to its goal of getting riders across the state in three hours or less.
Welcome to what’s arguably the nation’s largest infrastructure project and California’s biggest boondoggle.
The highly hyped bullet train has been a challenge from the start. No one thought it would be technically, financially and politically easy, but the way the project has been mishandled has some Californians fed up and demanding answers.
Just this week, the California High-Speed Rail Authority, the organization charged with overseeing construction, reported that the cost of the first segment had dramatically risen – again.
“The worst-case scenario has happened,” admitted Roy Hill, lead consultant on the project.
Since its start, this hot-mess express of a project has been plagued by delays and has blown through every single budget estimate imaginable. And it’ll likely cost the state and taxpayers more in the coming months and years.
Much more.
“The so-called bullet train is a solution in search of a problem that is plagued by billions of dollars in cost overruns and fiscal mismanagement,” San Diego City Councilman Mark Kersey told Fox News. “The billions being wasted on this boondoggle could have been invested in our current infrastructure needs, such as water storage, flood control, highways and bridges.”
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I was watching the HNN evening news and certain politicians were blaming other politicians because the cost of rail went up another $600m. Yes, now they are saying it will cost $9B instead of the previous $8.4B. Why don’t they stop lying and say it will cost over $10B and likely much more to finish this stupid project. I can see the Oahu GET surcharge going from 4.5 to 5%.
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https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/01/audit-honolulu-rail-agency-hid-true-costs-from-public-view/
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at some point, somebody's gotta come to the conclusion that any public works major construction project in Hawaii always results in exorbitant costs, and cost overruns. Hawaii is the worst place for the govt to build anything, they really sock it to ya. is it the worst in the nation? and as soon as you say federal money, hooo baby, they really milk that one six ways to sunday. H3 anybody?
who's "they"? labor unions, hawaiian artifacts & culture folks, environmentalists, conservationists, bumbling politicians trying to micromanage the living daylights out of anything common sense, like changing a lightbulb. not to mention the run-of-the-mill obstructionists.
lose money.
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I was watching the HNN evening news and certain politicians were blaming other politicians because the cost of rail went up another $600m. Yes, now they are saying it will cost $9B instead of the previous $8.4B. Why don’t they stop lying and say it will cost over $10B and likely much more to finish this stupid project. I can see the Oahu GET surcharge going from 4.5 to 5%.
they should just get it over with and go Kalifornia-style: 8.5% sales tax. I'm sure our Dem legislators are envious of CA and have all kinds of wasteful social projects they could blow that money on. After all, they are unopposed in elections, and not held accountable to anybody.
boom. done.
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I bet they all wished they’d listened to Cayetano when he proposed to greatly increase the bus system. He wanted a few bus terminals fed by smaller buses going into more residential neighborhoods. Projected cost under $500m and up and running in less than a year. That would be something a lot more people would have actually used.
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Here's the Grassroots Institute press release. There are far more details in the Civil Beat article linked above, but this is a good summary:
First part of HART audit is bad; will rest be worse?
The Grassroot Institute of Hawaii denounces the “egregious” behavior so far uncovered
HONOLULU, Jan. 10, 2019 >> The first installment of a four-part audit by the state auditor is more proof that the over-budget and behind-schedule Honolulu rail project has been significantly mismanaged, intensifying the worries of the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii that the megaproject has been rife with waste, abuse and possibly fraud.
Publicly released today, the state auditor’s report found that public disclosures by the Honolulu Authority for Rapid Transportation officials of cost and schedule estimates for the rail did not reflect internal projections, seriously misleading the public, lawmakers and even HART’s own board of directors about the financial health of the project.
Keli‘i Akina, Ph.D., president of the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii, said, “Hawaii’s taxpayers deserve public servants who hold truth and transparency as key values in their work. This audit has shown that HART staff did not demonstrate these values. The fact that HART inaccurately reported the project cost and completion schedule is an egregious example of government agencies subverting their responsibility to the public.”
The Grassroot Institute of Hawaii has long been lamenting how city and rail officials have been less than straightforward with the public and lawmakers about the rail. Previous research by the Institute found that city officials misrepresented the position of the Federal Transit Administration in order to persuade the Hawaii Legislature to approve a tax increase for the project. The Institute also shed light on the concerns of former HART board member John Henry Felix that the agency was violating its funding agreement with the FTA.
“It’s no secret,” Akina said, “that HART is plagued by cost overruns, and that there are major questions about where the money has gone, or whether the rail will ever be self-sufficient. Instead of misrepresenting and hiding information, HART should seek greater transparency, which would help restore some confidence in this out-of-control project.”
Akina added, “I look forward to seeing the remaining parts of the state audit of HART, but in the meantime, the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii will continue to call for an independent forensic audit for fraud, waste and abuse. It may be the only way to restore the public’s faith in a project that has long been suggested of being handled dishonestly — a suspicion confirmed by this audit.”
State Auditor Les Kondo told the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii that the second part of the audit will be released Monday, Jan. 14. There is no tentative date for the release of the last two parts.
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No need any mo audits. What's a few unaccounted millions among friends.
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Has anyone ever did the math on how much it would cost to just cancel everything? If we need to save, we can leave the pillars up till later.
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No matter the cost, they going complete it to Middle St at the least. To do otherwise would make them look stupid and incompetent and we can't have that now can we?
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did you read about that shooting on the NY "light rail" (subway)? MS13 perp had a conflict with a Mets fan, so ended up ventilating the Mets fan's face, 6 times. The Mets fan was getting pounded, pulled a gun, and the MS13 guy wrestled it away and then used it for "self defense". I'm sure the firearm was registered, legally acquired, and the Mets fan was on his way directly to/from his place of sojourn to the shooting range with the firearm in a law-conforming container. "killed by his own gun..."
MS13 in a sanctuary city, according to Nancy Pelosi, “There is a spark of divinity among every person on earth, and we all have to recognize that as we respect the dignity and worth of every person...” :wacko:
I've ridden light rail on the mainland, in Japan, Australia, Europe, and JIMHO it's terrific as implemented in those places, it goes everywhere, but robot-driven trains, with no attendant or transit cops give me some cause for worry. I think it's the bus drivers who encourage civility and good behavior on The Bus. Absent them, and who keeps the street punks in check?
NSFW.
pic.twitter.com/1TKxACLGp1 (http://pic.twitter.com/1TKxACLGp1)
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On the Taipei, Taiwan MRT (rail), they have a sign that says if someone is going ape shit, 1) Call help 2) Get away 3) Fight back with any object (guy using umbrella as sword).
I'm going next month and will take a pic of it and post it. The accompanying pics to the what to do sign was funny too.
About the vid, that's why you mind your own damn business. What if you were trying to break it up and shot by mistake. The lady screaming in the background was super irras.
Wonder if the Met's fan had a NY CCW?
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California to pull plug on billion-dollar bullet train, cites ballooning costs
Sound familiar?
Meanwhile in Hawaii... the politicians all go along to get along... gotta build it! Too big to fail.
I'm sure the dozens of commuters between Bakersfield and Merced will really like their train... meanwhile... for the citizens of all the major population where the train was "supposed" to go... nada! Waddaya want for 70 billion?!
California Gov. Gavin Newsom announced on Tuesday he is pulling the plug on the state's massive high-speed rail project from Los Angeles to San Francisco that was more than a decade behind schedule and billions in the red.
"Let's be real," Newsom said in his first State of the State address. "The current project, as planned, would cost too much and respectfully take too long. There's been too little oversight and not enough transparency."
CALIFORNIA BULLET TRAIN PROJECT ON TRACK TO BLOW THROUGH BILLIONS OF MORE DOLLARS
Newsom added that while California has "the capacity to complete a high-speed rail link between Merced and Bakersfield," "there simply isn't a path to get from Sacramento to San Diego, let alone from San Francisco to L.A."
The embattled $77-billion bullet train has been an embarrassment for the Golden State and has been plagued by problems almost from the start.
The idea, long championed by Newsom's predecessor, Jerry Brown, is years behind schedule with the latest estimate for completion set for 2033.
California voters approved the pricey proposal in 2008. Backers – including several Democratic lawmakers – heralded it as an inventive concept that would connect Californians and transform transit policies down the road.
But critics claimed the bullet train project was a waste of time and money.
“This so-called bullet train is a solution in search of a problem that is plagued by billions of dollars in cost overruns and fiscal mismanagement,” San Diego Councilman Mark Kersey said in 2018, adding that the billions wasted on the project “could have been invested in our current infrastructure needs, such as water storage, flood control, highways and bridges.”
Some supporters over the years argued the project should continue because millions of dollars had already been spent.
Others said it was time to cut and run.
In late November, a state audit highlighted the flaws in the project, which began the pressure on then Gov.-elect Newsom to consider cutting back the construction of the train or make other major changes.
According to the audit, the state risked having to pay back as much as $3.5 billion in federal funds.
"This audit is so damning that it basically says there is no path to completion and has now triggered a federal audit," Assemblyman Jim Patterson, a Republican from Fresno who pushed for the audit, said.
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Federal grand jury subpoenas rail authority documents as part of criminal investigation
HONOLULU (HawaiiNewsNow) - A federal grand jury has subpoenaed documents from the Honolulu Authority
for Rapid Transportation as part of a criminal investigation, Hawaii News Now has confirmed.
The focus of the investigation is unknown.
However, HART said it was told to provide “documents and files that largely duplicate those recently provided
and made available to the state auditor.”
The documents include consultant contracts, contractor change orders, archaeological studies, and correspondence
with the Federal Transit Administration regarding the rail project’s full funding rail agreement.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/02/14/federal-government-subpoenas-series-documents-rail-authority/