New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD (Read 106133 times)

dzine808

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #360 on: December 28, 2015, 09:26:19 AM »

Can you elaborate on this?  What do you mean this is no longer an issue?

Well, I called HPD Firearms and told them that I was planning on purchasing a pistol, but the dealer (Security Equipment) informed me that there was a dispute about Kaiser and Straub releasing medical information. Lady on the phone told me "There is no longer a problem and that it has been resolved. So you can come by and apply for your gun permit". So just passing on what I was told in case any of us under Kaiser or Straub  were wondering if they were going to be buy anything in the near future

mauidog

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #361 on: December 28, 2015, 09:53:38 AM »
Kaiser didn't "Red Flag" anybody. They simply provided the information to HPD. They are required to do this by law, especially if the information is in regards to the persons "mental state".

The fact that someone had counseling for grief, anger issues or even bedwetting when they were 7 can be construed to have had an effect on their mental state.

Any determination was made by HPD in light of the information they received.

We all know that most of this stuff is BS, especially if it occurred when they were children, but I expect we'll see more of it in the coming years as people were caught up the "psychobabble" craze of the last 20 years or so. Where any time you "felt" something, everyone thought it was best if they sought out psychiatric care or counseling of one kind or another.

As far as the government is concerned, we're all crazy. Except when they need money or votes.......

If the health care providers are not qualified to determine a patient's suitability to own firearms,

and HPD is not qualified to make a determination using a patient's medical history records,

then who IS qualified to use our medical records to make such a determination?

I believe what we are seeing here is the attempt to implement a requirement which was never feasible in the first place.

The law was written broadly to give HPD access to medical records for purposes of evaluating a person's mental health.  Everyone knew the police are not qualified for that. 

Once the police finally realized they are not qualified, they tried to use policy to force the healthcare providers to make the determination for them.  Kaiser and Straub appear to be only two (first two?) to push back.

This is the result of bad laws being implemented with no optimal solution possible.  It's a catch-22 .... neither side is qualified to make the determination, HPD for lack of medical training and the HMO for lack of willingness to make a determination without a full psych eval of the applicant.

Where does that leave us?  Either the law will be changed to require a psych eval for all permit applicants, or the City & County will have to hire medical experts to review medical records and conduct interviews to make a determination.


We have crossed over from "innocent until proven guilty (or crazy)," to "you must prove you are not guilty (crazy) before you may exercise this God-given Constitutional Right."
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

dstyles

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #362 on: December 28, 2015, 10:32:36 AM »


Confirmed by OGC as well.

Sodie

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #363 on: December 28, 2015, 10:37:01 AM »
If the health care providers are not qualified to determine a patient's suitability to own firearms,

and HPD is not qualified to make a determination using a patient's medical history records,

then who IS qualified to use our medical records to make such a determination?

I believe what we are seeing here is the attempt to implement a requirement which was never feasible in the first place.

The law was written broadly to give HPD access to medical records for purposes of evaluating a person's mental health.  Everyone knew the police are not qualified for that. 

Once the police finally realized they are not qualified, they tried to use policy to force the healthcare providers to make the determination for them.  Kaiser and Straub appear to be only two (first two?) to push back.

This is the result of bad laws being implemented with no optimal solution possible.  It's a catch-22 .... neither side is qualified to make the determination, HPD for lack of medical training and the HMO for lack of willingness to make a determination without a full psych eval of the applicant.

Where does that leave us?  Either the law will be changed to require a psych eval for all permit applicants, or the City & County will have to hire medical experts to review medical records and conduct interviews to make a determination.


We have crossed over from "innocent until proven guilty (or crazy)," to "you must prove you are not guilty (crazy) before you may exercise this God-given Constitutional Right."

EXACLY RIGHT.  I wrote pretty much the same things, except using more words and less clearly.  The solution isn't with HPD or Kaiser/Straub, it comes with electing better legislators and executives.

HiCarry

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #364 on: December 28, 2015, 01:53:50 PM »
Oh yeah, I will definitely be keeping this forum up-to-date with my handgun acquisition journey. I'm a first-time gun owner, so hopefully my fresh-eyes experience will be educational for the community as a whole.

Side note: been with Kaiser since birth, but they have lost my business and I will promptly be switching to HMSA come next enrollment period.
You should call Kaiser's customer service and ask to speak to someone in administration or patient/customer satisfaction and tell them you're switching plans and why. Maybe if enough folks do this Kaiser may get the hint that this is costing them money.....

HiCarry

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #365 on: December 28, 2015, 01:59:27 PM »
I will be attempting to call the Firearms Section prior to making an attempt to stand in line and will let you know what happens.  I did fill out my application on December 11, 2015 and process stalled after not being able to secure a medical clearance letter.  Application set to expire on December 31, 2015, if no resolution then I need to reapply.  I hope that my visit to Behavioral Science to work out an Rx to help with smoking cessation (this visit was approved by PCP).  Tried one Rx and it kept me awake and I ended up with what I started with Zyban (which has same characteristics as an anti-depressant).




Zyban is an antidepressant that is also used for smoking cessation and is likely the reason your chart was flagged. If this was the case, and I strongly suspect it was, then it further highlights why HPD is wholly unqualified to make any determination after reviewing medical records and why Kaiser needs to step up to the plate and serve it's customers by either not responding to the request (thereby allowing the process to continue) or to do an inhouse review with qualified medical professionals that can make that determination.

dzine808

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #366 on: December 28, 2015, 02:05:07 PM »
Alright, so I went to HPD to acquire a gun permit and I have Kaiser as my medical provider. Back to the old ways...not a problem at all. They do fingerprint your right thumb though which is new. Good luck all!!

HiCarry

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #367 on: December 28, 2015, 02:05:54 PM »
It is not a Kaiser or Straub problem, it is HPD.  I work for Kaiser, have for 15 years, and I have spoken to numerous parties including our lawyers about this.  Kaiser's policy has always (let me repeat that ALWAYS) been to send over the medical records requested to HPD just like we signed for them.  HPD used to review them, and now feels like making Kaiser and Straub provide a letter attesting to your mental status.  HPD has decided to change the process, not Kaiser and Straub.  Stop bashing your medical insurer when the douchebags in question work at HPD.  I have also spoken to the Dr. who wrote the letter HPD was giving out.  He never gave permission for this letter to be passed around by HPD, and as of last week has or will be sending a cease and desist to them. 
You are incorrect. Kaiser only started sending over entire medical records after they said they would stop issuing an "opinion" on any member's fitness to own a firearm and so they could state they were complying with the medical record release from HPD. They initiated a process that caused HPD to have to think about what they could do to get that information. Both parties are, IMHO, responsible for the problem, but it was Kaiser that started the ball rolling and HPD that felt they were forced to get something from Kaiser despite the fact that no response from any other HCP would not be interpreted as a denial and halt the permitting process.

mauidog

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #368 on: December 28, 2015, 02:36:16 PM »
You are incorrect. Kaiser only started sending over entire medical records after they said they would stop issuing an "opinion" on any member's fitness to own a firearm and so they could state they were complying with the medical record release from HPD. They initiated a process that caused HPD to have to think about what they could do to get that information. Both parties are, IMHO, responsible for the problem, but it was Kaiser that started the ball rolling and HPD that felt they were forced to get something from Kaiser despite the fact that no response from any other HCP would not be interpreted as a denial and halt the permitting process.

I'm sure you're right that Kaiser made a change and HPD reacted.  But the reaction is what's scary and wrong.  Instead of the State/HPD dealing with the HMO directly like the law requires, HPD created a hardship on the HMO members applying for permits. 

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see that Kaiser did anything that violated the law.

HPD thought they could get the members to (1) give them a letter that Kaiser would not or, (2) pressure Kaiser into reversing course and start issuing the letters again.

Regardless of what started all this, HPD is the side that created new policies that ignored the law and inflicted damages upon those trying to exercise their Constitutionally protected right.

Again, if Kaiser changed their policy, it was within the scope of existing law.  Kaiser is under no legal obligation to comply with HPD policies.  What HPD decided to do exceeded the scope of the law. 

Forcing the applicant to go out of network to get a psych clearance with specific wording and pay out-of-pocket falls under no part of the law.

I truly hope those who paid for a letter will file a claim with HPD and the city for reimbursement, including time lost from work.  We should not allow them to avoid consequences when they violate the rights of tax payers and gun owners.

An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

HiCarry

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #369 on: December 28, 2015, 02:58:45 PM »
I'm sure you're right that Kaiser made a change and HPD reacted.  But the reaction is what's scary and wrong.  Instead of the State/HPD dealing with the HMO directly like the law requires, HPD created a hardship on the HMO members applying for permits. 

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see that Kaiser did anything that violated the law.

HPD thought they could get the members to (1) give them a letter that Kaiser would not or, (2) pressure Kaiser into reversing course and start issuing the letters again.

Regardless of what started all this, HPD is the side that created new policies that ignored the law and inflicted damages upon those trying to exercise their Constitutionally protected right.

Again, if Kaiser changed their policy, it was within the scope of existing law.  Kaiser is under no legal obligation to comply with HPD policies.  What HPD decided to do exceeded the scope of the law. 

Forcing the applicant to go out of network to get a psych clearance with specific wording and pay out-of-pocket falls under no part of the law.

I truly hope those who paid for a letter will file a claim with HPD and the city for reimbursement, including time lost from work.  We should not allow them to avoid consequences when they violate the rights of tax payers and gun owners.



Both sides have created the problem. HPD tried to implement a new "process" that it had no statutory authority to so.

Kaiser could have simply reviewed the medical records and sent in info only on those with disqualifying conditions, Since most people don't have any of these disqualifying conditions the vast majority of the requests received could have been "ignored" once a determination of no disqualifying conditions was made. And while you might favor an argument where HPD was the bigger transgressor, the fact that a health system sent entire volumes of medical records, (the release signed is not for your "medical records" but rather specific PHI related to any defined disqualifying conditions) knowing those records would, by the nature of the release to a non-covered entity, be "unprotected" by HIPAA, showed a major disregard for the privacy of their members and inserted someone's antigun beliefs into a process that had been mostly without difficulty (the bigger issue of registration and medical "clearance" aside for now...) until they began "rocking the boat."

mauidog

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #370 on: December 28, 2015, 03:15:04 PM »
Both sides have created the problem. HPD tried to implement a new "process" that it had no statutory authority to so.

Kaiser could have simply reviewed the medical records and sent in info only on those with disqualifying conditions, Since most people don't have any of these disqualifying conditions the vast majority of the requests received could have been "ignored" once a determination of no disqualifying conditions was made. And while you might favor an argument where HPD was the bigger transgressor, the fact that a health system sent entire volumes of medical records, (the release signed is not for your "medical records" but rather specific PHI related to any defined disqualifying conditions) knowing those records would, by the nature of the release to a non-covered entity, be "unprotected" by HIPAA, showed a major disregard for the privacy of their members and inserted someone's antigun beliefs into a process that had been mostly without difficulty (the bigger issue of registration and medical "clearance" aside for now...) until they began "rocking the boat."

Yes, I'm very nervous about any of my records -- financial, medical or otherwise -- being copied totally and sent to another organization. Any agency that has my data has the ability to abuse, misuse or lose that data.  The smaller the number of agencies holding my info, the better!

I don't think Kaiser had a problem reporting to HPD when a patient has had specifically relevant conditions or treatments.  HPD could then require further evaluations before making a permit determination.  I think Kaiser was uncomfortable making that determination and sending that to HPD when Kaiser has not evaluated the patient for firearms risk.  Reporting the facts is fine.  Drawing a conclusion is something totally different.

I wish I had more inside details into Kaiser's reasons for changing their process, but based on the information others have posted, what I have said is a reasonable synopsis. 

I believe the clearance letters HPD required of recently erroneously flagged applicants  started this.  The clearance letter asks for a conclusion, not just medical details. Suddenly all Kaiser members applying for permits have to get the same letter signed?  Too coincidental.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

GZire

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #371 on: December 28, 2015, 04:12:23 PM »
Well, I called HPD Firearms and told them that I was planning on purchasing a pistol, but the dealer (Security Equipment) informed me that there was a dispute about Kaiser and Straub releasing medical information. Lady on the phone told me "There is no longer a problem and that it has been resolved. So you can come by and apply for your gun permit". So just passing on what I was told in case any of us under Kaiser or Straub  were wondering if they were going to be buy anything in the near future


Thank you for the explanation.  Please follow up with us and let us know how the process turns out.................does the lady mean the process is resolved in that you get the doctor's letter or that we go back to the old status quo?

dzine808

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #372 on: December 28, 2015, 04:17:34 PM »

Thank you for the explanation.  Please follow up with us and let us know how the process turns out.................does the lady mean the process is resolved in that you get the doctor's letter or that we go back to the old status quo?

Back to the old way, except there was a special "Kaiser" form that you, yourself, needed to fill out. Simple sign and date. Oh and right thumb finger printing as well. I chummed it up with some guys in line that spent $200 to get a psych evaluation, but I informed them they didn't need to and seemed pretty miffed that they spent that money. I just told them that it was good they had it and if HPD did want it, then they'd actually have it on hand. But HPD didn't ask and so they're out a few hundred LOL! But other then that...good to go :shaka: :shaka: :shaka:

stangzilla

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #373 on: December 28, 2015, 04:58:23 PM »
i agree both Kaiser and HPD are at fault, they both play a part in this

now that it is back to the old way, HPD can still red flag you for whatever reason.
no Kaiser doctor ever sees the HPD request, it goes to their records department, then records dept informs HPD if you went to behavioral health at some time in your life for any reason at all.
HPD will make the call if you are red flagged or not
then you have to get a letter of clearance for something you were never denied for
its still major BS.
even in the old procedure, HPD can still do whatever they want and red flag you, we are still at their mercy
HPD will never tell you what you are red flagged for, but when you do get red flagged, you are red flagged for life! 
who really knows what goes on between HPD and Kaiser.
maybe if they just feel like it, HPD will red flag you.

Heavies

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #374 on: December 28, 2015, 05:24:48 PM »
i agree both Kaiser and HPD are at fault, they both play a part in this

now that it is back to the old way, HPD can still red flag you for whatever reason.
no Kaiser doctor ever sees the HPD request, it goes to their records department, then records dept informs HPD if you went to behavioral health at some time in your life for any reason at all.
HPD will make the call if you are red flagged or not
then you have to get a letter of clearance for something you were never denied for
its still major BS.
even in the old procedure, HPD can still do whatever they want and red flag you, we are still at their mercy
HPD will never tell you what you are red flagged for, but when you do get red flagged, you are red flagged for life! 
who really knows what goes on between HPD and Kaiser.
maybe if they just feel like it, HPD will red flag you.

Wondering if you ever contacted Mr. Holcomb about your flag.  Wondering if you have no other recourse other than to accept the red flag and be doomed to seek eval every year from now till eternity? Is it like the "no fly list" where the secret back room panel selects you for the "list" where you have no hope to appeal, reprieve, or repeal, marked for life, like a branded criminal.

stangzilla

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #375 on: December 28, 2015, 05:46:57 PM »
In my case, there was a reason for my red flag
However small that reason seems to me, it is a reason
There is something in my past which I feel shouldn't disqualify me, but realistically I can see where it can raise a flag.
After some digging into my records, I don't feel like my case in particular would undoubtedly help our cause.
But I will help in other ways if I can.

Sodie

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #376 on: December 28, 2015, 05:58:21 PM »
...why Kaiser needs to step up to the plate and serve it's customers by either not responding to the request...
I'm not sure they legally have that option. 

Quote from: Hawaii Revised Statutes
[§134-3.5]  Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes.  A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
     (1)  The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and

     (2)  The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]
I'm not a lawyer, but this sounds to me like Kaiser "shall disclose," not "may or may not" disclose.

The recent problem lies more with HPD than Kaiser, IMHO, since it sounds like Kaiser did what they were required to do under the law.  HPD, having not read or understood the law, tried to enact a badly flawed policy.  The problem is that I don't believe that ANYONE at HPD is qualified to determine whether someone has been diagnosed as having "a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders" (sic). 

The root of the problem is THE LAW ITSELF.  Is there a generally accepted legal and/or medical definition of what qualifies as a "significant"? Does anybody at HPD know what that definition is, if it does exist?  Who at HPD reviews the medical information? What training and credentials do they have?  Does this review, by an unelected HPD employee, constitute the "due process" required by the Fifth Amendment prior to depriving someone of a "liberty?"

Like Mauidog said, both Kaiser and HPD have been jammed in between a rock and a hard place by a very poorly written, ill-conceived law.  The way to fix it is to change the law, and to do that, we have to change the lawmakers!

WayneN

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #377 on: December 28, 2015, 06:06:19 PM »
I will be attempting to call the Firearms Section prior to making an attempt to stand in line and will let you know what happens.  I did fill out my application on December 11, 2015 and process stalled after not being able to secure a medical clearance letter.  Application set to expire on December 31, 2015, if no resolution then I need to reapply.  I hope that my visit to Behavioral Science to work out an Rx to help with smoking cessation (this visit was approved by PCP).  Tried one Rx and it kept me awake and I ended up with what I started with Zyban (which has same characteristics as an anti-depressant).  I did end up quitting  :) (so far 5 years!) and it is not easy as those who smoked will attest. We'll see what happens.

By the way, I have shared our dilemma of securing permits with a number of folks and below is a response by an acquaintance who left HI for WA....grew up here his entire adult life and moved to WA about 8 years ago.  He's doing well and will retire and stay in WA.  He laughs at what's been going on here and just reminds me that our ridiculous challenges are an good example of why he and his Family left Hawaii.

According to him, there has been an increase in the number of conceal and carry applications "...130 people a day have been applying and almost 500,000 folks in WA have it.  that's like a third of all Hawaii residents thought you might be interested  how it works here" ... I guess he means America... ::)

You can share this with other discussion threads on Conceal and Carry if you'd like

http://www.southsound911.org/153/Concealed-Pistol-Licenses

"Happy New Year!"

Update: Went down to HPD this a.m. at ~ 9:30 a.m. only one person ahead of me.  When it was my turn I explained why I was there and was simply asked for my I.D. they looked thru a large stack of permits and said I was good to go!  I would recommend that if you know of any Kaiser member who was attempting to get a medical clearance letter and was still looking to get down there and pick their permit up...time could be of the essence.  My permit was set to expire on 12/31.  Another acquaintance (a Kaiser member) was in line and he had a signed medical clearance letter from a licensed Psychologist I told him  that no letter is now required but keep it handy just in case.  There are those who still may not be aware of change back to what it was.  Please get the word out so #1 They can stop their physician search  #2 Get back in to pick up their permit which may be time sensitive.

Next Steps: In my opinion, I believe Kaiser opted not to respond like in the past and placed its' membership in a difficult, costly and "crazy making situation"...nix that...let's say no-win situation.  I believe their Certificate of Insurance clearly states they provide "diagnosis, evaluation and treatment of substance abuse...mental illness and treatment of Serious Mental Illness"; Covered Services #18, #19 and #31.  Hence, Kaiser should via their Electronic Medical Records (EMR) easily pull down and validate what HPD wanted all along.  Note:   This is why when you're in the exam room the Dr. doesn't have a huge file folder...he or she use the terminal to access what he or she needs...it's quite impressive.  Keep in mind that I sometimes have to tell the Dr. to go look for something if he questions you about a condition.  With that being said Kaiser did not provide those who went out-of-network what they paid for via their premium...a breach of contract. So I would recommend that a complaint be filed to be reimbursed for services rendered by outside physician.  In addition, the argument could be made that while Kaiser provides a medical clearance letter for certain critical job applications, in this instance they did not provide same.  In my opinion, this is discriminatory and contra to what we are suppose to expect regarding the 2nd amendment.

I will still be filing a complaint with the Kaiser - Hawaii Region (only Kaiser Region affected) and Kaiser - Corporate to voice my dissatisfaction along with several other decisions they made this past year that just doesn't sit right with me.

Again, get the word out to other Kaiser members who are may be affected by this and head off having to incur any further frustration and cost.

I apologize for the length of the message.

 

     
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 06:20:47 PM by WayneN »

Scar16

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Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #378 on: December 28, 2015, 07:08:28 PM »
So i went to hpd this morning (line was kinda long out the door) to renew my permit. As a Kaiser member they still asked me for my clearance from the doctor or psychologist which I had.  They said to bring my letter everytime I go down there. So I don't know what you guys are talking about that it has changed back to normal? Regarding the posts above, it's both hpd n Kaiser. Hpd is requesting medical clearance and Kaiser will not say whether you are fit or unfit to have possession of firearms, so you'll need to go to an outside doctor or psychologist. But I remember last year when I asked the Kaiser medical records lady who flags said "why do you need so many guns, why do you need that many, who buys that many in a year?" I didn't need to explain myself to this ignorant lady but I had to get my point across saying I buy, sell, and collect. Wow 5 guns in 2 years is a lot, bitch please. I should have gotten her name, lessen learned always get a paper trial or names, time, date, what was said etc...  Well I'm still interested to see if you guys still need to get a clearance if you got Kaiser.

Btw I wouldn't trust Kaiser with anything, they have totally violated the hippa act with my medical records in the past when there was consent given.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 07:17:25 PM by Scar16 »

WayneN

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #379 on: December 28, 2015, 08:54:42 PM »
Zyban is an antidepressant that is also used for smoking cessation and is likely the reason your chart was flagged. If this was the case, and I strongly suspect it was, then it further highlights why HPD is wholly unqualified to make any determination after reviewing medical records and why Kaiser needs to step up to the plate and serve it's customers by either not responding to the request (thereby allowing the process to continue) or to do an inhouse review with qualified medical professionals that can make that determination.

Again, I went down to pick my permit this a.m. with the understanding that the medical clearance letter was not needed anymore.  However, I expected that my visit to Behavioral Science to work on my Rx for smoking cessation would red flag and I would have to petition a waiver.  So I gave them my I.D. and "lo and behold" my permit was pulled from the stack of permits and signed off and that was it...went to dealer and came back to register firearm...just wanted it done.  Hope that other's will get their permits and enjoy the New Year!  :) Good Luck!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 04:46:46 PM by WayneN »