We are not having a fight. A debate about differing viewpoints and your answers are being rebutted.

Exactly

Speaking for myself, I’m not forcing my views, morals or anything else in anyone. I’m pointing out points that are either not based on logic or “known based on belief” and not being substantiated. Some seem to take that as being a victim, slandered, etc.

Idk maybe my fight is pointless like voting 3rd party but I feel I can't just do nothing.  Perhaps over time if enough people are like me there can be real change.  Change is hard.  People tend to fight it rather than accept it.

The simple fact is people will not give up ease and luxury to save a planet that there is no proof is being destroyed.  Ohh snap, I said it. ZERO PROOF.

And even if there was, a few countries doing their part will not help if many other countries are doing a lot worst (China, Indonesia, India, Vietnam, etc...)

Trump pulled us out of the Paris Accord cause countries like China wasn't paying their share or doing anything.  So he's saving the US millions annually.  He got blasted for it and even our geneious Ige wants to sign HI back in.  A few months later, the UN actually admitted the Paris Accord does nothing for the earth.  Trump was right again.  You should have voted for him.  He likes to give tax breaks, so if a company does go green, if anyone gives them an incentive to do so, it would be him.  And since after his first tax cuts, many companies moved jobs/factories back, wouldn't that mean less pollution overseas because the USA has higher regs?  Damn you really wasted your vote.

We still use fossil fuels because they are the most energy dense. Battery technology i.e. lithium based ones: Lithium polymer, lithium ion are catching up energy density but they still contribute to pollution when they are manufactured and disposed.

I'm old enough to remember paper bags are bad.  So then switched to plastic bags.  Plastic bags bad too. So now back to paper.  Well which is it?  And if it's both, then no bags right?

And some “renewable” energy sources actually do more damage in the long run. Look up disposal for PV and solar systems. Do they save up front? Yea and what people tend to focus on. What about then those systems have exceeded their useful life?  What, just dump them in space?

I'm old enough to remember paper bags are bad.  So then switched to plastic bags.  Plastic bags bad too. So now back to paper.  Well which is it?  And if it's both, then no bags right?

Put a paper bag over head of someone, can. Put a plastic bag, might be trouble. 

B4 you buy a 100% battery car, look into how bad that battery is for the environment with relation to it  being made and disposed of after.  Plus CA wild fires screwed 100% electric cars cause no power or places to charge.  So gas is still king.  We do have lots of EPA regs from tree huggers with drilling.  The US has lots of oil, but cant access it or more expensive to do so because of EPA regs.  So we have to buy overseas from countries who don't care about the earth.  Wouldn't it be better to relax some regs so we can drill/frack more?  Same goes with the oil we get here.  My friend used to work as a harbor pilot some years ago.  Thanks to the Jones act or something, the oil boat from our west doesn't dock in HI to drop off crude oil.  Instead if goes to CA because they gotta pay if they stop in HI.  Then from CA, it comes here.  So using more fossil fuels to ship stuff to us that just passed our state due to regs/laws.  He told me this many years ago, so IDK if it's still true or not.

Actually my goal is to take my house off the grid and do solar + battery backup. 

The problem with that is batteries that pollute is still a better direction.  They can invent better batteries.  All the fracking in the world isn't going to improve things or encourage change or a different way of thinking. 

I think the Jones act is beyond stupid and should be repealed.  It only does harm economically and ecology.

hello pot?
this is kettle
you're black

But he’s obviously always correct.

I'm old enough to remember paper bags are bad.  So then switched to plastic bags.  Plastic bags bad too. So now back to paper.  Well which is it?  And if it's both, then no bags right?

Trees are grown to produce paper bags. Something tree huggers overlooked

And some “renewable” energy sources actually do more damage in the long run. Look up disposal for PV and solar systems. Do they save up front? Yea and what people tend to focus on. What about then those systems have exceeded their useful life?  What, just dump them in space?

You are correct it isn't perfect now.  But if people buy solar PV, then it builds a market.  Over time PV panels with get better, more eco friendly and improve.  But if you don't do anything it will never get to that point.

Actually my goal is to take my house off the grid and do solar + battery backup. 

The problem with that is batteries that pollute is still a better direction.  They can invent better batteries.  All the fracking in the world isn't going to improve things or encourage change or a different way of thinking. 

I think the Jones act is beyond stupid and should be repealed.  It only does harm economically and ecology.

You can take your house off the grid RIGHT NOW. Is there a law that says your house must have electricity from HECO? Or any electricity?

You can take your house off the grid RIGHT NOW. Is there a law that says your house must have electricity from HECO? Or any electricity?

I rent....I dont own a house.  Owning a house in your 20's is quite rare.

You are correct it isn't perfect now.  But if people buy solar PV, then it builds a market.  Over time PV panels with get better, more eco friendly and improve.  But if you don't do anything it will never get to that point.

the financial incentives for adopting solar PV in Hawaii eclipsed. I'm on grid tie - HECO gets the electricity from MY system at way less than they charge me for.
the PV market here is quite volatile.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/hawaiis-solar-market-continues-to-struggle-without-net-metering

You are correct it isn't perfect now.  But if people buy solar PV, then it builds a market.  Over time PV panels with get better, more eco friendly and improve.  But if you don't do anything it will never get to that point.

More damage in the long term is better? That’s not being better, that’s being short sighted.

It’s the perception of “clean” or “renewable” that is generally smoke and mirrors. That’s my point. Not that it isn’t worth trying to do so or improve the tech. It’s that people are sold in concepts based on limited info, or research into the issue.

Yeah, I was an uber advocate for much of what you describe. That is until I needed to dig into things for a work program where the idea was to spend lots to implement “greener” tech into facilities. Prob can find those posts in old threads here.

I rent....I dont own a house.  Owning a house in your 20's is quite rare.

Not rare at all. I know many people in their 20s that own.
is there anything in your rental agreement that says you must have electricity from HECO?

Semantics?  How about common sense?

I was looking for book shelves a couple of months ago.  Was searching online and reading reviews to see how a given shelf is, particularly how easy or difficult it is to assemble.  I found this book shelf I really liked and available locally, but the reviews on how difficult it was and how long it took made me take a pause.  People were saying stuff like "no directions", "can't figure it out", etc.  Anyways, there were also a number of positive reviews, but without mention of easy of assembly.  I ended up buying two.

Got them home and yeah, the directions are minimum.  However, with just a LITTLE bit of common sense, it was pretty easy to figure out how to assemble.  Yeah, better directions probably could have made it easier, but I had zero issues assembling them.  I think people have become so used to people telling them exactly what to do that they have lost the ability to think for themselves and figure things out.

The moral of your story is, if you have to be told how to do every little thing in life, then who is ever going to be able to depend on YOU for anything?

The best that type of person could do is take you to his drawer full of instruction manuals and let you figure out what you need.   

Critical thinking skills are necessary in all aspects of life.  Performing a simple assembly job while being provided all the correct parts engineered to go together should not be a hardship.

Makes me wonder if evolution has peaked, and only the mentally strong among us will survive the next big population "correction."

One is easily fixable and one isn't. Can have kids whenever,  we only got 1 earth.

By that logic, we need to kill 90% of living humans to save the Earth.

We can always make more.

More damage in the long term is better? That’s not being better, that’s being short sighted.

It’s the perception of “clean” or “renewable” that is generally smoke and mirrors. That’s my point. Not that it isn’t worth trying to do so or improve the tech. It’s that people are sold in concepts based on limited info, or research into the issue.

Yeah, I was an uber advocate for much of what you describe. That is until I needed to dig into things for a work program where the idea was to spend lots to implement “greener” tech into facilities. Prob can find those posts in old threads here.

Less damage in long term
Wait for the tech you say,  what motivates people to invent said tech?  You need demand,  having "green" demand brings innovation and better products over time.

Not rare at all. I know many people in their 20s that own.
is there anything in your rental agreement that says you must have electricity from HECO?

You know many people in their 20's living on oahu who own houses?  Dang that's one interesting social circle.   Yes you are not allowed to modify the house....its in most agreements.

Criminals, have less rights than non criminals.  We execute prisoners.  Are you against the death penalty?

Children who have never committed a crime -- who represent the purest and most innocent of all people on Earth -- somehow equate to criminals committing the most egregious crimes known to society?

Do you get muscle aches trying to twist your ideas like this? 

The unborn have no say in what happens to them.  It's up to the living adults to protect life.  Capital punishment is a means to protecting the rest of society.

If you need an analogy, how about this:

If we kill criminals who take another life through the justices system,
then we should also kill those who murder the unborn.

The fact that we do not shows how little value we place on human life in all its forms.

Exactly

Speaking for myself, I’m not forcing my views, morals or anything else in anyone. I’m pointing out points that are either not based on logic or “known based on belief” and not being substantiated. Some seem to take that as being a victim, slandered, etc.

It's some people's natural tendency to playh the victim card when confronted with undeniable facts that are in opposition to their beliefs and misinformed "knowledge".